A review of the trumpets --

Before the trumpets --
*Constantine unites Christianity with the Roman Empire.
•The papacy was groomed by Imperial Rome.
•A powerless form of Christianity doing nothing to transform the carnal nature results in a licentious society bearing Christ's name.
•The western imperial Rome is "weighed in the balances" and found wanting and falls.
*Trumpet after trumpet (four in all) sound as the western Roman Empire crumbles under the onslaught of armies.

The Trumpets prophesy the consequences of the making of the Beast, which grew out of the great apostasy from Christianity.

Would history be different, if corruption had not reigned? Would it have been different if the "state religion", instead of treating the Christian tribes who held Semi-Arian belief, as heretics and threats to the papal church, they would have respected each other as Christians?

The uniting of state and religion, making the papal religion THE only acceptable religion, brought ruin to imperial western Rome -- a variable not often recognized.


•The papal church did not die with the death of the empire, instead it rises from the ashes of imperial Rome and gains sovereign power over religion for 1260 years.


•The nature of sovereign power over religion is to eradicate all who don't agree with that power and submit to its mandates
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•Three strong Semi-Arian nations were uprooted under combined efforts and influence of Papacy and eastern emperor.

*The eastern Emperor, Justinian, is still in the business of "forming the beast", disposing one who seemed favorable to the Gothic kingdom that was in control of Italy and Rome, and replacing him with another pope.

*The Goths were the last of the three Semi-Arian nations to be uprooted. Now the papacy filled the vacuum of power in Italy, as well as being the "head" of all churches.

But there were still "non-compliant" Christians who -- after the agenda of state religious control, needed to be either converted, banished, or annihilated.

•There are still many true Christians in the east, they start fleeing further east out of range of the beast power.
•Wars with Persia, (where many of these Christians had fled) as well as the desire to control Jerusalem, which the Persians had captured in 614 AD, caused the papal party to devise a plan to use the Arab armies to settle these matters for them.
•Mohammad was "groomed" to lead in this plan.
•But that backfired big time. As the now combined (at least in religious motivations) Arab tribes had no desire to fight for the Catholics, but started to set up their own "empire".

The aim to control will eventually always backfire.

The fifth trumpet covers a period of eight hundred and seventeen years,—A.D. 632-1449,
....—first the Arabian Mohammedans showing the rise and work of the Mohammedans in the destruction of the Eastern Rome Empire
.... later the 150 years of Turkish Mohammedans.

Most of the conquest and the crusades took place prior to those 150 years.
And one wonders who did the most damage to the Eastern Roman Empire -- the Turks or the Christian Crusaders?

We must remember that after the Eastern Orthodox church refused to acknowledge the pope as their "head', every occasion was used to try and force them back into submission.

The Christian Crusaders weakened the Eastern Empire to a point where they no longer had the strength to resist the Turks when they came.

Now let's look at the fifth trumpet a little closer:

9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

A STAR FALLS

He "drops down" from heaven to the earth. But who is he?

THE KEY

Jesus holds all the keys. (Rev. 1:8 and 3:7) Who else would hold the key that shuts and opens the bottomless pit? The king of the bottomless pit, Apollan, is obviously NOT holding the key.
Jesus has given the key to a divine messenger who drops down from heaven to set loose the frightening hordes of the bottomless pit.
Later in the sixth trumpet, we see the trumpet angel told to release four bound "angels".

So in the fifth trumpet a key is given to release those confined in the bottomless pit.


9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

THE BOTTOMLESS PIT

The "deep". We find two beasts in Revelation that ascend out of the bottomless pit. (Rev. 11:7 and 17:8) Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit. Rev. 20:1,3.
The bottomless pit seems to be a place where demonic evil is "chained". Thus when a "beast" arises from the bottomless pit, it has received it's power from "the dragon"(as we see in Rev. 13) but it is none the less a human identity.
Nahum 3:15 compares enemy warriors to locusts.

Others see "bottomless pit" as a general wasteland -- as a desert.

The vast hordes of the Mohammedans are shown under the symbol of a cloud of locusts; and in verses 7-9 the meaning of the symbol is made plain by the words, "The shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; . . . and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle." {September 4, 1900 ATJ, ARSH 568.6}

They have the power of the scorpion, not the shape of the scorpion. They sting and cause a lot of pain and suffering, but they are not as deadly as the ones coming in the sixth trumpet.

Apostolic Christians were tolerated by the Moslems at first. In fact many actually welcomed the take over of the Moslems as they had been persecuted by the Eastern emperors.
The monks apparently didn't fare so well. As the years went by animosity between Christians and Muslims grew.

and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.


The fifth and the sixth trumpet cover what is commonly called the "dark ages". What made them "dark"?

The smoke out of the bottomless pit arose on the earth, and darkened the sun, (The Son of righteousness) and filled the world with corrupt sentiments, and the minds of men with superstitious principles, - the obnoxious vapors of the doctrine of devils filled the moral air.

"The accession of the Roman Church to power marked the beginning of the Dark Ages. As her power increased, the darkness deepened. Faith was transferred from Christ, the true foundation, to the pope of Rome. Instead of trusting in the Son of God for forgiveness of sins and for eternal salvation, the people looked to the pope, and to the priests and prelates to whom he delegated authority." GC88 54

9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

And there came locusts out of the smoke upon the earth. Smoke denotes errors, and locusts destructive armies.

The locusts of the fifth trumpet are cruel invading armies proceeding against those without the seal of God.

What is the 'seal of God'?

"The fourth commandment alone of all the ten contains the seal of the great Lawgiver, the Creator of the heavens and the earth.--6T 350 (1900)

What was happening in regards to the Sabbath during this time?

The Roman church was going ever stricter in outlawing the Saturday, Sabbath, and promoting the Sunday, "Lord's Day".

The Sabbath in the Dark Ages was still being kept, as many tried to accommodate the Catholic institution as well as keep God's Sabbath, by refraining from work TWO days every week. Saturday and Sunday.

We see many regulations being issued during this time, forbidding Sabbath keeping and enforcing Sunday keeping.

Thus the smoke of error rising out of the bottomless pit including (among other things) the church's rejection of the "the seal of God" the 7th day Sabbath.

Out of the smoke came hordes of locusts (Mohammaden Arabs) armies. Coming out to hurt those who had rejected the "seal of God".

Conclusions:

9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit (the pit where evil and demonic spirits were restrained);
and there arose a smoke out of the pit, (errors and strange doctrines)
as the smoke of a great furnace; (devouring nearly all)
and the sun (the Son of Righteousness, Jesus Christ)
and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. (blinding people from seeing Christ our Savior)
9:3 And there came out of the smoke (out of these errors)
locusts upon the earth: (aggressive armies -- Islamic Arabs)
and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. (power to sting like scorpions)
9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; (they were commanded not to destroy nature when they took a city)
but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. (The Arab warriers were sent against the Christian Church which sought to obliterated God's sign of Creation/sanctification/loyalty -- the Sabbath, the seal of God.

Are the Five angels another "transparency layered over" the others?

If so, you can't compare sequential order between them.
Only within.

If not, then you need to show why it's not a transparency, why it should be implied order to something before chapter 12. You can't cross the chapter 11-12 boundary. Two totally different parts of Revelation - "transparencies" if you will. Chapter 12 begins a new section starting at Christ's death. You can't cross it for implying sequential order to the previous part.

I have no idea what you are talking about with a boundary that can't be crossed over????? Just because the first half takes us from the prophet's day to the very end of the "time of the end" in three layered accounts, and the second half of Revelation focuses primarily on the "time of the end" does not mean they are "totally different" and don't tell the same story.

It is ONE STORY,

http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=185265#Post185265

The seven churches -- they are given in order. (One transparency)
The seven seals -- they are given in order. (A second transparency that is layered over the first)
The seven trumpets -- they are given in order. (A third transparency layered over the first)

Five angels with special warning messages to the people of earth follow in sequence --
the first (Rev. 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters

That angel is NOT a trumpet angel, but is the first to cry a warning to the "inhabitants of the earth" right at the time when the beast gains it's power, (about 538 A.D.) beginning the 1260 years. -- After imperial Rome fell, and the Papacy filled the power vacuum.

Revelation 13 tells us the beast receives a wound (people think he's dead for good) BUT the beast will revive and the next three angels, we see warning the inhabitants of the earth, that the beast revives and gains a strong partner, we should worship God, not the beast and his image, God is judging who we are actually worshipping, the one we obey is our master (starting about 1840 to end)

Then in Revelation 18 we see the last angel that "warns the inhabitants of the earth" --
this last warning angel gives a stronger warning reinforcing the other three == that's where we are in the course of history right NOW!



TIME PERIODS
34 -150......150-312......312-538........538-1520....1520-1798......1798-1850......1850-20??
Rev. 2-3
Ephesus,.... Smyrna,.... Pergamum,.... Thyatira,.... Sardis,...... Philadelphia,.... Laodicea
Rev. 6-7
White horse, Red horse, black horse,.. pale horse,... 5th seal....... 6th seal....................7th seal
Rev. 8-11
.......................Trumpet angels 1-4.. { } trumpet angels 5-6 ..timelines end ..trumpet angel 7
..............................................papacy rises..................papacy wounded
.......................................................................................last church is born
Chapter 12-13
dragon works through imperial Rome.....through beast power..........................beast & image of beast
Chapter 14
.........................................................................................................144,000 stand with Christ
..................................................................................... (3 angel's message)...harvest of the earth.
Chapter 15-16
................................................. ................................................................seven last plagues
Chapter 18
......................................................................................................... Rev. 18:1
Rev. 19
..............................................................................................................................Second Coming

The third angel's message and the trumpets.

What is the theme of the third angel's message (which is the total sum of the three angels of Rev. 14)?

Have we as a church kind of lost sight of this message?

"THUS the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which He had had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made." Gen.2:1-3

Rev. 14:6-7 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Thus begins the story of earth's history.
And the last message centers on this same theme.

"The Sabbath is the memorial of creation, as we have seen. But let it not be forgotten that the Sabbath was given at the time when "God saw all that He had made; and behold, it was very good." So the Sabbath commemorates a perfect creation.

God intended the earth to be inhabited by a race of perfect beings. To these beings He gave the Sabbath, that they might keep in mind their Creator, and thus retain their perfection. That perfection was not merely physical perfection, but it was spiritual as well. Man, in perfection of character, was made in the image of God. So he was to observe the Sabbath in relationship WITH his Creator, as a reminder of the spiritual perfection that he had received from God, and that could be preserved by Him alone. Now it is to that perfect condition that the Lord is going to restore the earth, and through the Gospel He is preparing a perfect people to inhabit the restored earth. Although man has fallen, and the earth has been defiled, the Sabbath still remains, a fragment of Eden, both as a reminder to man of what God prepared in the beginning, and as a means of lifting him up to that high position, so that he may enjoy it when it is restored.

Notice that we are to remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. The Sabbath is holy, because God made it holy, and so we are to keep it. We are not to make it holy, for that would be impossible; only God could do that. No act of ours can add to or detract from its holiness. Neither do we to make ourselves holy, so that we may keep it properly. That we can not do. But the same power that sanctified the Sabbath day will sanctify us.
Ex. 31:13 Verily my sabbaths you shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that you may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

That power is the power that made the universe. It is creative power by which we are to be sanctified, for Christ is the Creator, and He is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption. God has given us the Sabbath, - the memorial of His creative power, - that we may know that He is the God that sanctifies us.

The Sabbath is the seal of God.

We don't hear that very often anymore.
Maybe it's because we have forgotten that the Sabbath is the sign that God is the ONE who sanctifies --

WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE TRUMPETS?

The religious world opposes the Sabbath.

And that is what the five angel's are warning us about.
It's what the seven trumpets are warning us about.

Imperial Rome united with Roman Catholicism and no sooner was that accomplished and we see the first Sunday law!!!
Issued by Constantine in A.D. 321.
Constantine never really gave up his sun worship when he supposedly became a Christian. His law was in honor of the "venerable Day of the sun".

During the same time the Roman bishop -- Pope Sylvester I (314 - 335) conferred on the Sunday the title of Lord's day and decreed that the rest of the Sabbath should be transferred rather to the Lord's day [Sunday]. According to this statement, he was the first bishop to introduce the idea that the divinely appointed rest of the Sabbath day should be transferred to the first day of the week.

From that point onward Emperors and Popes in succeeding centuries added more and stricter laws to increasingly enforce Sunday observance, and forbid Sabbath keeping. What began as a pagan ordinance ended as a Christian regulation.

Thus the four trumpets ---


But then we have the first WARNING Angel crying out "woe, woe, woe"
The fall of western imperial Rome did not stop the onward march of opposition to the Sabbath and the true gospel.

In its place the papacy carried on the work of replacing truth with mixture of paganism under a cloak of truth. It became the only allowed religion. It was indeed 1260 years of woe for those who clung to their faith in Christ and His commandments.

Two more trumpets sound, and this time it's Muslim armies that come against the apostate church.
Indeed the smoke of false doctrine hid the truth of the gospel. The Papal church enforces Sunday, Muslims honor Friday, neither have the true gospel. Both believe in using the sword to convert people. Sabbath keepers are persecuted extensively -- Jews as well as Christian Sabbath keepers face horrible times.
Will the smoke totally obliterate truth?

There is a reprieve after trumpet #6
Truth would shine forth!
But that window is closing, as all the forces are again marshaling.

Two points the devil fights against --
those who
1)Have the faith of Jesus,
faith in Jesus (as our Creator, Savior, Mediator, Sanctifier) Who gives us the faith of Jesus, to --
2)Keep God's commandments and be renewed in mind and character.
Resting in Him, on the day He made holy, trusting that He will make us holy, restoring us in His image, as we walk with Him.

Those two points make up the third angel's message.

Also, judgment is seen in both the trumpets and the three angel's messages. There is nothing but war and trouble, fire and brimstone, and woe for those who follow after the "beast" and his image.

But hope and eternal life for those who "follow the Lamb" Who is also the "Lord of the Sabbath", our Redeemer, Savior, Sanctifier, Creator and Re-Creator.

Yes, it's one story!
Told different ways.
"Transparencies" as you call them.

Maybe you have a different definition of what a "transparency" is.

I see it as something that implies no order. One is overlayed over another, but the very same picture, the very same story, is shown no matter which transparency is overlayed first. Therefore, no order is implied, you cannot go from one transparency to another and say there is an order between the two.



I have no idea what your shocked faces are about....

They represent the "loud voices" of five warning angels.
Rev. 8:13
Rev. 14:6
Rev. 14:8
Rev. 14:9
Rev. 18:1

As to transparencies. -- back in the olden days before all this technology, when I was teaching elementary students, we had "overhead projectors" on which we placed plastic sheets (transparency sheets) with pictures or words on them to project onto a screen or wall. By using several transparencies one could layer them-- starting with an outline transparency, then adding additional transparencies to fill in details. These would show on the screen (or wall) as one picture. Thus indeed it showed the ORDER how they all fit together.

You must use transparencies different than I know about.

One picture implies no order.
Whether you show the head first, or the tail first, it doesn't matter.
Same one picture.
No order.

Obviously you haven't used overhead projectors like I have.
The finished "picture", once all the transparent sheets are layered on the projector, and projected onto the screen, would look very much like my chart a couple posts above this one.
Now adays, we would probably use powerpoint, with the first scene just a timeline across the top, and have the churches come floating onto the screen and fall in their place in the timeline as we discussed them, then have the seals come floating onto the screen and fall into their place in the timeline as we discussed them -- etc. etc. till we had the full chart.



But that is getting somewhat off the topic. What I'd like to get into more is the fifth and sixth trumpet and how they fit on the timeline.

This is a foundational block in the Adventists historicist understanding, so no wonder the counterfeit reformation has almost obliterated what Protestantism once believed about those trumpets. And sadly some leading Adventists are also tearing down what was a foundational in establishing the Adventist church.



The historic interpretation of the trumpets came under attack in 1919, shortly after EGW died. A leading advocate for change in understanding, was W.W. Prescott.

What is of considerable interest here is that this dissenting leader W.W.Prescott had earlier, while EGW was working on the last edition of the Great Controversy, suggested several changes be made to the book. EGW was open to changes if they would improve the way the message was written. Most changes were minor changes like -- whether a bell rang at the palace, as some historians wrote, or at the church where she had placed it in the earlier edition, since historians disagreed on that point, and God hadn't revealed where the bell was located, EGW simply wrote "the bell tolled".

But Prescott also urged that EGW remove her endorsement of Litch's prophetic interpretations on the timelines within the fifth and sixth trumpets since historians were challenging those dates. But EGW refused. In fact she made it more emphatic with definite endorsement that these timelines were EXACTLY fulfilled! --

"In the year 1840 another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy excited widespread interest........At the very time specified, Turkey, through her ambassadors, accepted the protection of the allied powers of Europe, and thus placed herself under the control of Christian nations. The event exactly fulfilled the prediction. GC 334
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