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Re: Was the first day of the week or Sunday ever made a day of worship?
[Re: Rick H]
#186255
03/23/18 04:43 AM
03/23/18 04:43 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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Yes, the word Sabbath means rest, in which everyday work ceases, on that point we can agree.
But notice, God did not bless the "rest", he blessed the "day", He did not bless, sanctify and hallow the "rest", He blessed and sanctified the "day" because in it He rested.
That "rest day" was THE seventh day, not "A" or any seventh day, but THE seventh day.
So how can anybody call just any day the Sabbath? How can we call any day THE "blessed" and "sanctified" day, other than the day that God specially blessed and sanctified?
It's true the Bible does not speak of a Monday, Tuesday -- etc. It speaks of the 1st day, 2nd day, 3rd day, 4th day, 5th day, 6th or preparation day, and THE 7th day Sabbath.
A rose by any other name is still a rose, thus the 7th day Sabbath by any other name, Sabti, Sobota, Sabado, Saptu, Savvato, Sabet, etc, is still the 7th day Sabbath. Interesting how many languages call the day after Friday by a name meaning "rest" -- or "Sabbath".
If the particular day has no bearing upon the divine ordinance of rest and worship then it is rather meaningless. It becomes a "human ordinance" or matter of human convenience -- it is no longer God's special "date" with us. Then indeed it becomes a "seeking after our own righteousness" an "I'll do it my way, Lord, when I feel like it" sort of thing.
But God Himself selected THE day when He invites us to come apart from the cares of this life and spend quality time with Him. He set it apart from the other days of the week, He bless and set apart a particular day for a holy purpose, and asked us to remember.
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Re: Was the first day of the week or Sunday ever made a day of worship?
[Re: Rick H]
#186259
03/23/18 01:43 PM
03/23/18 01:43 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,515
Midland
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Dedication, I disagree with James' purpose of intent.
But... He does raise a question I hadn't considered. Does God invite us (the round world) to come apart from the cares of this life and spend quality time with Him for almost two days?
What determines when the 7th day is? Jerusalem? Are we to "look towards Jerusalem"? Otherwise, what determines when the 7th day is? History based upon Jerusalem?
I suppose one could consider that Jerusalem's 7th day was based upon the post flood's 7th day? Is that able to be proved?
Interested in hearing what you have to say. Considering James' suggestion, I'm sure this is going to be a important answer to come up with or many will be lost on it.
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Re: Was the first day of the week or Sunday ever made a day of worship?
[Re: Rick H]
#186263
03/23/18 07:58 PM
03/23/18 07:58 PM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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God has not asked people to remember two days a week for Sabbath observance. Everyone is asked to "remember to keep holy" the 24 hours from sunset to sunset as the Sabbath reaches them. But yes, it does take THE Sabbath two days to give all the inhabitants of the earth 24 hours of Sabbath blessedness.
We are now advancing the conversation into the "dateline" debates again.
When does a day begin?
A day is measured by one rotation of the earth on it's axis.
We know each day circles the earth, as the point on earth where you live moves into the shadow and darkness and then rotates on its axis around to face the sun. No matter where one is in the world, they will experience 24 hours of Sunday, 24 hours of Monday, 24 hours of Tuesday, 24 hours of Wednesday, 24 hours of Thursday, 24 hours of Friday and 24 hours Sabbath as the earth's rotation brings each day to them.
But where does it begin? Where does it end? A ball has no real "beginning and ending".
It's back to the "dateline" question.
On earth's globe -- one point is regarded as the "center" point. (The center of civilization in a sense) Right now that "center point" is acknowledged as Greenwich, England. Determined at a time in history when the "sun never set on British Empire". Though at creation the center point of civilization would have been the Garden of Eden. The "day line" or "dateline", the place where the day begins (and ends) is on the opposite side of the globe from the "center of civilization" point. I personally believe (and I don't expect you to agree) but from the Genesis one account, I believe the earth had just one huge continent at the end of the third day of creation. Science seems to confirm that once there was only one huge land mass. The Americas were attached to Europe and Africa. Genesis says the water was gathered in one place, the dry land appeared. Eden was planted "eastward" possibly somewhat east of the center of that huge continent. The day began at the outer eastern edge, or eastern coast, of the huge continent and moved westward (as it does today) until it reached the western edge or coast. The "day line" was in ocean, as it is in the Pacific Ocean today.
Since originally civilization spread out from Eden, moving both east and west, they probably didn't even know there was such a thing as a "day line", they measured time by the sun, and days by the cycle of dark and light.
During the flood the land mass was broken up into continents, but the same general principle applies. People radiated out from the point where the ark landed -- the day line is on the opposite side of the globe -- somewhere in the Pacific. Until Magellan sailed around the world, no one was even aware that there was a dateline. They measured the days by the sun.
We have Biblical confirmation as to which day is the seventh day in the middle east. That same day stretched east and west from the middle east without any controversy as "which day it was" as it was governed by the setting sun -- the same as it is today.
After the dispersion, the Jews didn't have any trouble knowing what day was the Sabbath, even though some lived hundreds of miles east or west of the original homeland. The day is defined by a period of darkness and light.
It is only as one crosses the Pacific Ocean that one discovers that indeed there is a dateline. It's when Magellan sailed around the world that it was discovered that the day began on the east "coast" of earth's original land mass, before the day ended on the west coast, but it didn't change what day it was on the main land.
There still is no controversy as to what day it is on the continents of earth -- it's only the tiny Islands in the Pacific; as we don't know where exactly in the Pacific the dateline resides.
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Re: Was the first day of the week or Sunday ever made a day of worship?
[Re: dedication]
#186264
03/23/18 08:13 PM
03/23/18 08:13 PM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
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God has not asked people to remember two days a week for Sabbath observance. Everyone is asked to "remember to keep holy" the 24 hours from sunset to sunset as the Sabbath reaches them. But yes, it does take THE Sabbath two days to give all the inhabitants of the earth 24 hours of Sabbath blessedness.
We are now advancing the conversation into the "dateline" debates again.
When does a day begin?
A day is measured by one rotation of the earth on it's axis.
We know each day circles the earth, as the point on earth where you live moves into the shadow and darkness and then rotates on its axis around to face the sun. No matter where one is in the world, they will experience 24 hours of Sunday, 24 hours of Monday, 24 hours of Tuesday, 24 hours of Wednesday, 24 hours of Thursday, 24 hours of Friday and 24 hours Sabbath as the earth's rotation brings each day to them.
But where does it begin? Where does it end? A ball has no real "beginning and ending".
It's back to the "dateline" question.
On earth's globe -- one point is regarded as the "center" point. (The center of civilization in a sense) Right now that "center point" is acknowledged as Greenwich, England. Determined at a time in history when the "sun never set on British Empire". Though at creation the center point of civilization would have been the Garden of Eden. The "day line" or "dateline", the place where the day begins (and ends) is on the opposite side of the globe from the "center of civilization" point. I personally believe (and I don't expect you to agree) but from the Genesis one account, I believe the earth had just one huge continent at the end of the third day of creation. Science seems to confirm that once there was only one huge land mass. The Americas were attached to Europe and Africa. Genesis says the water was gathered in one place, the dry land appeared. Eden was planted "eastward" possibly somewhat east of the center of that huge continent. The day began at the outer eastern edge, or eastern coast, of the huge continent and moved westward (as it does today) until it reached the western edge or coast. The "day line" was in ocean, as it is in the Pacific Ocean today.
Since originally civilization spread out from Eden, moving both east and west, they probably didn't even know there was such a thing as a "day line", they measured time by the sun, and days by the cycle of dark and light.
During the flood the land mass was broken up into continents, but the same general principle applies. People radiated out from the point where the ark landed -- the day line is on the opposite side of the globe -- somewhere in the Pacific. Until Magellan sailed around the world, no one was even aware that there was a dateline. They measured the days by the sun.
We have Biblical confirmation as to which day is the seventh day in the middle east. That same day stretched east and west from the middle east without any controversy as "which day it was" as it was governed by the setting sun -- the same as it is today.
After the dispersion, the Jews didn't have any trouble knowing what day was the Sabbath, even though some lived hundreds of miles east or west of the original homeland. The day is defined by a period of darkness and light.
It is only as one crosses the Pacific Ocean that one discovers that indeed there is a dateline. It's when Magellan sailed around the world that it was discovered that the day began on the east "coast" of earth's original land mass, before the day ended on the west coast, but it didn't change what day it was on the main land.
There still is no controversy as to what day it is on the continents of earth -- it's only the tiny Islands in the Pacific; as we don't know where exactly in the Pacific the dateline resides. All of the above when all the 4th commandment is asking is that the last day of the week be a day of rest; and that SDA should behave themselves properly and not spend the day ridiculing those who worship God on Wednesdays. But SDA have truly fallen into the trap of congratulating themselves for accurately "tithing celery and ground onions". ///
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Re: Was the first day of the week or Sunday ever made a day of worship?
[Re: Rick H]
#186265
03/23/18 11:34 PM
03/23/18 11:34 PM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,713
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All of the above when all the 4th commandment is asking is that the last day of the week be a day of rest; and that SDA should behave themselves properly and not spend the day ridiculing those who worship God on Wednesdays.
Who is ridiculing people worshipping God on Wednesdays? (or any other day) We need to be walking with God every day, every day should find us worshipping God. Also you can take off work on any day to rest, if you need rest. Nothing wrong with that. But we, human beings, can't transfer the solemnity God placed on the Sabbath, from THE Seventh day, to any day of our choosing. But Wednesday is NOT the last day of the Biblical week. It is the 4th day of the Biblical week. The above post, written by me, which you quoted, was NOT answering your post, it was answering Kland's question (sorry for not making that clear) Kland originally asked -- when, or where, do you think a day begins? Which he actually first asked you -- but received no answer. We were talking about the SABBATH of scripture -- the day God blessed and sanctified and set apart for us to come apart and rest in Him, and delight ourselves in Him in a special way! That day isn't just any day of the week. It's a special day -- a blessed day, for scripture tells us God specially blessed and sanctified it, and asked us to remember it to keep it holy. A day when we do NOT rely on our works, either for our living or our salvation, but spend the day KNOWING it is God that loves us, cares for us, and sanctifies us. It seems to me you, James, have only seen the 7th day Sabbath as a burden, not a blessing -- maybe it stands in the way of your job -- I don't know. But I do know that the more I walk with Christ, the more I realize what a blessing the Sabbath is on a very personal level. God is good -- we need to trust in Him to take care of us. The Sabbath hours are now approaching in this part of the world -- some are already in the Sabbath hours -- May you all have a blessed Sabbath day!!! God bless.
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Re: Was the first day of the week or Sunday ever made a day of worship?
[Re: dedication]
#186267
03/24/18 08:15 AM
03/24/18 08:15 AM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
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All of the above when all the 4th commandment is asking is that the last day of the week be a day of rest; and that SDA should behave themselves properly and not spend the day ridiculing those who worship God on Wednesdays.
Who is ridiculing people worshipping God on Wednesdays? (or any other day) We need to be walking with God every day, every day should find us worshipping God. Also you can take off work on any day to rest, if you need rest. Nothing wrong with that. But we, human beings, can't transfer the solemnity God placed on the Sabbath, from THE Seventh day, to any day of our choosing. But Wednesday is NOT the last day of the Biblical week. It is the 4th day of the Biblical week. The above post, written by me, which you quoted, was NOT answering your post, it was answering Kland's question (sorry for not making that clear) Kland originally asked -- when, or where, do you think a day begins? Which he actually first asked you -- but received no answer. We were talking about the SABBATH of scripture -- the day God blessed and sanctified and set apart for us to come apart and rest in Him, and delight ourselves in Him in a special way! That day isn't just any day of the week. It's a special day -- a blessed day, for scripture tells us God specially blessed and sanctified it, and asked us to remember it to keep it holy. A day when we do NOT rely on our works, either for our living or our salvation, but spend the day KNOWING it is God that loves us, cares for us, and sanctifies us. It seems to me you, James, have only seen the 7th day Sabbath as a burden, not a blessing -- maybe it stands in the way of your job -- I don't know. But I do know that the more I walk with Christ, the more I realize what a blessing the Sabbath is on a very personal level. God is good -- we need to trust in Him to take care of us. The Sabbath hours are now approaching in this part of the world -- some are already in the Sabbath hours -- May you all have a blessed Sabbath day!!! God bless. You have it all upside down. - The commandment does NOT say, "Remember Saturday because it is holy ..." as if Saturday were inherently holy in and of itself and therefore given authority over people to bring them into judgment over whether they approached the day looking solemn or not.
- Rather, the commandment says, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy ...." meaning that the day derives its state from the (un)holiness of people's actions during its stateless hours, hours that are as stateless as any other during the week.
There are NO holy hours separate and apart from unholy hours! But there are holy actions of people which imbue the time of their days with holiness; or unholy actions with unholiness. As you rightly said said in your reply to kland, everybody has their own Sabbath day on a round earth. We know each day circles the earth ... And so the 4th commandment asks that you rest from work on the last day of your week, but that in your rest, you do not get up and dance in forgetfulness of who gave you rest. That's all. Saturdays are NOT holy and Wednesdays unholy. Instead Sundays are as holy as Tuesdays, so long as the days are spent in holiness. To see it even more clearly: - Consider the Day of Atonement that God said, "It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict your souls; on the ninth day of the [seventh] month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath." (Lev. 23:32)
- Whatever happened to "the holiness" of that day? To Christians such as we are, the tenth day of the seventh month of the Jewish religious calendar is NOT holy at all! We walk all over the day in utter forgetfulness in spite of the clear command of God in Lev. 23:30-31, "any person who does any work on that same day, that person I will destroy from among his people. You shall do no manner of work; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings."
///
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Re: Was the first day of the week or Sunday ever made a day of worship?
[Re: Rick H]
#186269
03/24/18 05:10 PM
03/24/18 05:10 PM
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SDA Active Member 2018
Regular Member
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 63
Colorado, USA
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Every command has as much authority as the one commanding. The holiness of the Sabbath is derived from He who gave it.
Is the holiness of the day and the blessing of God so flimsy that humans can declare it to be unholy through choosing another day? This would bring God too low. Are humans holy that we can sanctify another day as holy? This would assume us to be too high.
We honor the Sabbath set by God not simply because it is a law, or because there's wages associated with the breaking of it, but because we are honoring God who blessed not only the Sabbath, but in giving it to us also blessed us.
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Re: Was the first day of the week or Sunday ever made a day of worship?
[Re: Josh M]
#186271
03/24/18 08:49 PM
03/24/18 08:49 PM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
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Every command has as much authority as the one commanding. The holiness of the Sabbath is derived from He who gave it.
Is the holiness of the day and the blessing of God so flimsy that humans can declare it to be unholy through choosing another day? This would bring God too low. Are humans holy that we can sanctify another day as holy? This would assume us to be too high.
We honor the Sabbath set by God not simply because it is a law, or because there's wages associated with the breaking of it, but because we are honoring God who blessed not only the Sabbath, but in giving it to us also blessed us. So then, why do you dishonour God by bluntly refusing to keep HIS Day of Atonement? " Any person who does any work on that same day (i.e. THE Day of Atonement), that person I will destroy from among his people. You shall do no manner of work; it shall be a statute FOREVER throughout your generations in all your dwellings. It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict your souls; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath." (Lev. 23:30-32) ///
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Re: Was the first day of the week or Sunday ever made a day of worship?
[Re: James Peterson]
#186273
03/25/18 01:41 AM
03/25/18 01:41 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,713
Canada
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You have it all upside down. [list][*]The commandment does NOT say, "Remember Saturday because it is holy ..." as if Saturday were inherently holy in and of itself and therefore given authority over people to bring them into judgment over whether they approached the day looking solemn or not.
I see you misunderstand what I have been saying. Of course Saturday is not inherently holy in and of itself, Of course Saturday does not have authority to bring anyone into judgment. First -- the name "Saturday" is just a name in the English language that happened to be given to the 7th day. It's true the Bible does not speak of a Monday, Tuesday -- etc. It speaks of the 1st day, 2nd day, 3rd day, 4th day, 5th day, 6th or preparation day, and THE 7th day Sabbath. The 7th day Sabbath by whatever name a language or culture gives it, Sabti, Sobota, Sabado, Saptu, Savvato, Sabet, or Saturday etc, is still the 7th day Sabbath of scripture. Interesting how many languages call the day after Friday by a name meaning "rest" -- or "Sabbath". SECOND -- The 7th day is holy BECAUSE God made it holy. He blessed and sanctified it. The holiness of the Sabbath is not inherently in and of itself, nor do we bring any holiness to it. It's holiness is God's blessing and sanctification. (See Gen 2:1-3) Only God can make holy. Remember Ezekiel 20:12 The Sabbath is a sign that we KNOW that it is that God makes us holy, He is the One Who sanctifies us. THIRDLY No day has "authority to bring anyone into judgment" the only One Who is Judge is Christ. "All judgment is given unto Him" (John 5:22) And Christ says: "If you love Me, you will keep my commandments" In Isaiah 56 He says: "They that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keeps the sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant" will be part of the joyful restitution. The Psalmist says; 119:126 It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law. While Paul makes it clear that our works do not save us however, he warns "Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. Romans 6:1-2 We know what sin is because God's law defines what sin is. (see Romans 7:7) The judgment determines if we have accepted Christ and are following Him, or if we have made self our god and follow our own desires. Rather, the commandment says, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy ...." meaning that the day derives its state from the (un)holiness of people's actions during its stateless hours, hours that are as stateless as any other during the week.
Do you have biblical proof for that? Do we have the power to make "hours" holy by being especially good during those hours? I don't think so. Genesis 2 tells me that God made the 7th day holy. He blessed and sanctified it. "Holiness" is not something that is relative in degrees from unholiness. People don't MAKE anything holy. People come to Christ to be made holy. The God Who made the Sabbath hours holy can make us holy. It is His presence, His blessing, His sanctification -- when we submit to Him, He imparts to us holiness. As said in your reply to kland, everybody has their own Sabbath day on a round earth. We know each day circles the earth ... Now you are really misunderstanding what I wrote. The 7th day Sabbath is a specific DAY of the week that travels around the globe, and everyone on earth can observe THAT definite day as it arrives in their part of the world, it's not "their own Sabbath", it's the 7th day of the Biblical week. It's a specific day that began in the east and travelled westward around the globe till every country has experienced that day.
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Re: Was the first day of the week or Sunday ever made a day of worship?
[Re: Rick H]
#186274
03/25/18 01:54 AM
03/25/18 01:54 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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As to the "day of atonement"
First -- it is not one of God's ten commandments written in stone which are to be engraved upon our hearts and minds. The ten commandments are NOT nailed to the cross -- every single one of them outlines our love for God and our love for others, and warns us as to what is sin.
Second -- the temple services had many holy things to teach the people of the ministry, mission and atonement of Jesus Christ. It was an "object lesson" teaching the plan of salvation. The temple services ceased when the veil was torn from top to bottom at Christ's death on the cross.
Thirdly -- if you feel convicted to observe the day of atonement, (that is, set apart the time to reflect on its meaning, not replicate the ceremonies done on the day of atonement) by all means do so. It would do us all good to set apart time to study the "object lessons" and contemplate more fully the plan of salvation in Jesus Christ.
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