Genesis 2 King James Version (KJV)

2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

In Genesis 2:1-3 we read that God blessed and sanctified the seventh day. The Hebrew word translated 'sanctified' in Genesis 2:3 and 'hallowed' in Exodus 20:11 is qadash, a word meaning 'to hallow, to pronounce holy, to consecrate, to set apart for holy use.'

There is no denying that God was here setting aside the Sabbath as holy time. So when God first created man, and made the Sabbath for man as Christ declare, would He have failed to mention to man that the seventh day was holy time? Certainly not, the seventh day was set apart from Creation.

Now lets look at Sunday or the first day of the week is the first day said to be a day of worship, never is it said to be the Christian substitute for the Old Testament Sabbath, and never do the texts suggest that the first day of the week should be regarded as a memorial of Christ's resurrection. Lets look at the New Testament passages that mention the first day of the week.

Matthew 28:1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Jesus was crucified on Friday. He rested in the tomb over the Sabbath and rose early on Sunday morning. The verse indicates that the women disciples returned to the tomb at the very first opportunity after the death and burial of Jesus. Because the Sabbath came so soon after His burial, they could not approach the tomb again until after sundown on Sabbath evening. (The Sabbath began at sundown on the sixth day and ended at sundown on the seventh day; compare Lev. 23:32; Neh. 13:19; Mark 1:21, 32) Early Sunday morning was the most convenient time for them to visit the tomb.

Mark 16:1-2 King James Version (KJV)

1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

Mark records the same events as Matthew with the additional information that the women visited the tomb early on the Sunday morning for the express purpose of anointing Jesus' body with spices.

Mark 16:9 King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

This verse simply records that, after His resurrection early on the Sunday morning, Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene.

Luke 23:54 King James Version (KJV)

54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Luke 24:1 King James Version (KJV)

24 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

The Sabbath came a few hours after Jesus' death on the cross. The women "rested the sabbath day according to the commandment" (Luke 23:56, KJV). Then very early in the morning of the first day they visited the tomb to anoint the body of Jesus. The fact that they observed the Sabbath rest is sufficient indication that Jesus had never attempted to change the day or to suggest that after His death the first day would replace the Sabbath.

John 20:1 King James Version (KJV)

20 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Mary Magdalene visited the tomb early the first day of the week. Nothing is said of Sunday as a day of worship or rest.
John 20:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

On the evening of the first day of the week the disciples were assembled behind locked doors "for fear of the Jews." Jesus appeared to them at that time. The passage does not say that henceforth Sunday was to be the day for worship. Since it was the evening of the first day of the week that Jesus appeared to the disciples, it was after sundown. According to Jewish reckoning this was actually the beginning of the second day (Monday; compare Gen. 1:5, 8 ). A week later when Thomas happened to be present, Jesus met with the disciples again (verse 26). But, writing years later, John records nothing regarding Sunday as a day of Christian worship. John's narrative gives no warrant for regarding Sunday as a substitute for the Sabbath or as a day to be distinguished by Christians above any other day of the week. And there is no indication in the passage that Sunday should henceforth be observed as a memorial of Christ's resurrection.

Acts 20:7 King James Version (KJV)

7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Since the meeting was held at night on the first day of the week, it may have been Saturday night. According to Jewish reckoning, the Sabbath ended and the first day of the week began at sundown of the seventh day. If it were Sunday evening, the event gives no suggestion that Sunday should be observed as a day of worship. The following verses record that Paul preached a sermon on Thursday. The next day after the meeting recorded in Acts 20:7 (Monday), Paul and his party set sail for Mitylene (Acts 20:13, 14). The following day (Tuesday) they arrived opposite Chios (verse 15). The next day (Wednesday) they passed Samos (verse 15), and the day after that (Thursday) they arrived at Miletus (verse 15). The elders of the church of Ephesus met Paul at Miletus, and he preached to them (Acts 20:16-36). Because a Christian service was held on Thursday, do we conclude that Thursday is a day for regular Christian worship replacing the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath? A religious service on Sunday, Thursday, or any other day certainly did not make that day a replacement for the seventh-day Sabbath or a day of regular Christian worship and rest. There is no special significance in the disciples breaking bread at this first-day meeting, for they broke bread "daily" (Acts 2:46). We are not told that it was a Lord's Supper celebration, nor are we told that henceforth Sunday should be the day for this service to be conducted. To read Sunday sacredness or Sunday observance into Acts 20:7 is to do violence to the text.

1 Corinthians 16:1-3 King James Version (KJV)

16 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
.

These verses may be literally translated from the Greek as follows: "And concerning the collection for the saints, as I instructed the churches of Galatia, so also you do. On the first day of the week let each of you place (or 'lay') by himself, storing up whatever he might be prospered, so that when I come there might be no collections." (Italics supplied.) The phrase "by himself" (par' heauto), followed by the participle "storing up" or "saving" (thesaupizon), rules out the possibility that this is a reference to an offering taken up in a worship service. The Christian believer was to check his accounts on Sunday and put by at home the money that he wished to give to Paul for the support of the church. When Paul arrived, then the offerings of each individual would be collected.

None of these eight New Testament references to the first day of the week (Sunday), provides any evidence that Jesus or His disciples changed the day of worship from the seventh to the first day. Nor is the first day of the week represented as a time to memorialize the resurrection of Christ. Whatever special significance was given to Sunday in the later history of the church, it had no basis in the teaching or practice of Jesus and His apostles.

Jesus instructed His disciples to observe the Sabbath after His death (Matt. 24:20). Jesus' instruction was incorporated into His interpretation of Daniel 8 (compare Matthew 24:15 ff.). Daniel predicted that the work of the little horn power would continue until the setting up of God's kingdom (Dan. 8:25). Hence, Jesus' instruction to flee from the little horn power was not confined to Christians at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70). Toward the end of time, during the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21, of which earlier tribulations were a type or preview, God's people will be obliged to flee again. Jesus' instruction that we pray that our flight will not be on the Sabbath day emphasizes His will that we engage in only those activities on the Sabbath that are consistent with worship and spiritual rest.

The record of the book of Acts (chapters 13, 16-18) establishes that the apostles consistently kept the Sabbath day as a time for worship and fellowship. This observance was not merely a means of meeting the Jews in the synagogue on their Sabbath day. In Philippi, Paul and his companions met for worship by the riverside. Luke says, "On the sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed [or "thought" or "assumed" : Greek nomizo] there was a place for prayer. . . ." (Acts 16:13). The apostles selected a place by the river that they thought would be appropriate for their Sabbath worship service, and there they prayed and witnessed for their Lord.

Jesus and the apostles kept the seventh-day Sabbath and instructed others to do likewise, so it wasn't changed by them.....excerpts from "The Sabbath in Scripture and History" by Kenneth A. Strand,.

But the fact that the day begins later in California than it does in Halifax, is no proof that it cannot be kept in both places.

Scripture says:

Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it.

To sanctify --
"to make holy; set apart as sacred; consecrate"

Ex. 20:11 The LORD... rested the seventh day: wherefore The LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

To hallow it means --
To make holy; to set apart from common.

So which 24-hour did God make holy:
1. the Chinese sabbath (Beijing time),
2. the Hebrew sabbath (Jerusalem time), or
3. the Panamanian sabbath (Panama time)?
Should everybody rest on THE holy 24 hours -- or THEIR holy 24 hours?

All three -- God blessed and sanctified the DAY - a specific day from sundown to sundown. The seventh DAY was sanctified, not a specific time zone, He made the DAY holy, thus when that seventh DAY comes to your time zone, it is holy.

God has not asked people to remember two days a week for Sabbath observance. Everyone is asked to "remember to keep holy" the 24 hours from sunset to sunset as the Sabbath reaches them. But yes, it does take THE Sabbath two days to give all the inhabitants of the earth 24 hours of Sabbath blessedness.

We are now advancing the conversation into the "dateline" debates again.

When does a day begin?

A day is measured by one rotation of the earth on it's axis.

We know each day circles the earth, as the point on earth where you live moves into the shadow and darkness and then rotates on its axis around to face the sun.

No matter where one is in the world, they will experience 24 hours of Sunday, 24 hours of Monday, 24 hours of Tuesday, 24 hours of Wednesday, 24 hours of Thursday, 24 hours of Friday and 24 hours Sabbath as the earth's rotation brings each day to them.

But where does it begin? Where does it end? A ball has no real "beginning and ending".

It's back to the "dateline" question.

On earth's globe -- one point is regarded as the "center" point. (The center of civilization in a sense)

Right now that "center point" is acknowledged as Greenwich, England. Determined at a time in history when the "sun never set on British Empire". Though at creation the center point of civilization would have been the Garden of Eden. The "day line" or "dateline", the place where the day begins (and ends) is on the opposite side of the globe from the "center of civilization" point.

I personally believe (and I don't expect you to agree) but from the Genesis one account, I believe the earth had just one huge continent at the end of the third day of creation. Science seems to confirm that once there was only one huge land mass. The
Americas were attached to Europe and Africa.
Genesis says the water was gathered in one place, the dry land appeared. Eden was planted "eastward" possibly somewhat east of the center of that huge continent.

The day began at the outer eastern edge, or eastern coast, of the huge continent and moved westward (as it does today) until it reached the western edge or coast. The "day line" was in ocean, as it is in the Pacific Ocean today.

Since originally civilization spread out from Eden, moving both east and west, they probably didn't even know there was such a thing as a "day line", they measured time by the sun, and days by the cycle of dark and light.

During the flood the land mass was broken up into continents, but the same general principle applies. People radiated out from the point where the ark landed -- the day line is on the opposite side of the globe -- somewhere in the Pacific. Until Magellan sailed around the world, no one was even aware that there was a dateline. They measured the days by the sun.

We have Biblical confirmation as to which day is the seventh day in the middle east. That same day stretched east and west from the middle east without any controversy as "which day it was" as it was governed by the setting sun -- the same as it is today.

After the dispersion, the Jews didn't have any trouble knowing what day was the Sabbath, even though some lived hundreds of miles east or west of the original homeland. The day is defined by a period of darkness and light.




It is only as one crosses the Pacific Ocean that one discovers that indeed there is a dateline. It's when Magellan sailed around the world that it was discovered that the day began on the east "coast" of earth's original land mass, before the day ended on the west coast, but it didn't change what day it was on the main land.

There still is no controversy as to what day it is on the continents of earth -- it's only the tiny Islands in the Pacific; as we don't know where exactly in the Pacific the dateline resides.

All of the above when all the 4th commandment is asking is that the last day of the week be a day of rest; and that SDA should behave themselves properly and not spend the day ridiculing those who worship God on Wednesdays.

Who is ridiculing people worshipping God on Wednesdays? (or any other day) We need to be walking with God every day, every day should find us worshipping God. Also you can take off work on any day to rest, if you need rest. Nothing wrong with that. But we, human beings, can't transfer the solemnity God placed on the Sabbath, from THE Seventh day, to any day of our choosing.

But Wednesday is NOT the last day of the Biblical week. It is the 4th day of the Biblical week.

The above post, written by me, which you quoted, was NOT answering your post, it was answering Kland's question (sorry for not making that clear)
Kland originally asked -- when, or where, do you think a day begins?
Which he actually first asked you -- but received no answer.

We were talking about the SABBATH of scripture -- the day God blessed and sanctified and set apart for us to come apart and rest in Him, and delight ourselves in Him in a special way!
That day isn't just any day of the week. It's a special day -- a blessed day, for scripture tells us God specially blessed and sanctified it, and asked us to remember it to keep it holy.

A day when we do NOT rely on our works, either for our living or our salvation, but spend the day KNOWING it is God that loves us, cares for us, and sanctifies us.

It seems to me you, James, have only seen the 7th day Sabbath as a burden, not a blessing -- maybe it stands in the way of your job -- I don't know.


But I do know that the more I walk with Christ, the more I realize what a blessing the Sabbath is on a very personal level. God is good -- we need to trust in Him to take care of us.

The Sabbath hours are now approaching in this part of the world -- some are already in the Sabbath hours --
May you all have a blessed Sabbath day!!! God bless.

We know each day circles the earth ...

Every command has as much authority as the one commanding. The holiness of the Sabbath is derived from He who gave it.

Is the holiness of the day and the blessing of God so flimsy that humans can declare it to be unholy through choosing another day? This would bring God too low. Are humans holy that we can sanctify another day as holy? This would assume us to be too high.

We honor the Sabbath set by God not simply because it is a law, or because there's wages associated with the breaking of it, but because we are honoring God who blessed not only the Sabbath, but in giving it to us also blessed us.

You have it all upside down.
[list][*]The commandment does NOT say, "Remember Saturday because it is holy ..." as if Saturday were inherently holy in and of itself and therefore given authority over people to bring them into judgment over whether they approached the day looking solemn or not.

Rather, the commandment says, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy ...." meaning that the day derives its state from the (un)holiness of people's actions during its stateless hours, hours that are as stateless as any other during the week.

As said in your reply to kland, everybody has their own Sabbath day on a round earth.

It's back to the "dateline" question.

We have Biblical confirmation as to which day is the seventh day in the middle east. That same day stretched east and west from the middle east without any controversy as "which day it was" as it was governed by the setting sun -- the same as it is today.

As to the "day of atonement"

First -- it is not one of God's ten commandments written in stone which are to be engraved upon our hearts and minds. The ten commandments are NOT nailed to the cross -- every single one of them outlines our love for God and our love for others, and warns us as to what is sin.

Second -- the temple services had many holy things to teach the people of the ministry, mission and atonement of Jesus Christ. It was an "object lesson" teaching the plan of salvation. The temple services ceased when the veil was torn from top to bottom at Christ's death on the cross.

Thirdly -- if you feel convicted to observe the day of atonement, (that is, set apart the time to reflect on its meaning, not replicate the ceremonies done on the day of atonement) by all means do so. It would do us all good to set apart time to study the "object lessons" and contemplate more fully the plan of salvation in Jesus Christ.

You have it all upside down.

• The commandment does NOT say, "Remember Saturday because it is holy ..." as if Saturday were inherently holy in and of itself and therefore given authority over people to bring them into judgment over whether they approached the day looking solemn or not.
   
• Rather, the commandment says, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy ...." meaning that the day derives its state from the (un)holiness of people's actions during its stateless hours, hours that are as stateless as any other during the week.

Ex 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.

Ex 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

De 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

No, I wasn't getting into that.

But you did answer my question here. If we have the Bible as infallible, and assuming we can trace THE seventh day from Biblical times to today, then we would know for sure that it matches the Word of God. There would be the implication as to if there were a dateline somewhere then, but not really sure that would be relevant.

Which kind of still leaves the question, should we look for Jerusalem for the Sabbath or our locale but which would conflict with sunset at our locale.

Interesting you'd recommend that. When would you say the day of atonement begins on a round world...?

The tablet of stones, written with God's finger, were put in the ark. The laws written by Moses on parchment, were put in the side of the ark.

If it cannot be shown workable for a round world, it would be further evidence, besides what Paul wrote and had conflict with the Judaizers, that they are not valid today.

I personally believe (and I don't expect you to agree) but from the Genesis one account, I believe the earth had just one huge continent at the end of the third day of creation. Science seems to confirm that once there was only one huge land mass. The
Americas were attached to Europe and Africa.
Genesis says the water was gathered in one place, the dry land appeared. Eden was planted "eastward" possibly somewhat east of the center of that huge continent.

I personally believe (and I don't expect you to agree) but from the Genesis one account, I believe the earth had just one huge continent at the end of the third day of creation. Science seems to confirm that once there was only one huge land mass. The Americas were attached to Europe and Africa.

Do you believe that the world before the flood (on the side of Creation) has any resemblance to the world after the flood?

Do you believe there was a vast body of water at the Creation?

The earth being a globe, it is evident that it cannot have any ends where the existence of its surface could cease, such a term when applied to the north and south poles being quite incorrect. This expression when it occurs in our Bible does not therefore refer to the poles, indeed it would not be probable that it should, since their existence was unknown to its writers, and though a book written for all people and times, terms were always used that conveyed a definite meaning to the people then living. There is no word used in either Hebrew or Greek that conveys the exact sense of the idea we often give the words "earth" and "world"—the proper names of a planet. When the words so translated occur they sometimes mean the people living on the globe, but more frequently the "habitable land." This latter is, in fact, the specific and literal significance of several of these Hebrew words themselves, and was vulgarly applied to the continent upon which men then lived, and where the book was written. The "ends" of this "habitable land" are referred to in the following Scriptures :
Zech. 9 : 10 ; Ps. 19 : 4 ; Isa. 40 : 28 ; Prov. 30 : 4 ; Ps. 59 : 13 ; Job 37:3 ; Deut. 33 : 17; Job 38 : 4-13 ; Ps. 65 : 5-8 ; the two latter being particularly worthy of study in this connection. In these we are told where the day begins.
by N.D. In "The Bible Echo. March 24, 1902

so I highly doubt that there was a vast ocean like it is today -- but there was a "sea" I do believe it was much bigger than what we now call "a sea" today.

The European Sunday Alliance calls on all its members and on all citizens to take action on 3 March 2018 as the European Day for a work-free Sunday with special activities, Church services and information points in order to raise awareness about the unique value of Sunday for the European society and the importance of common free time in a digitalised society.

The European Sunday Alliance is a network of national Sunday Alliances, trade unions, employers’ organisations, civil society organisations, churches and religious communities committed to raise awareness of the unique value of synchronised free time for our European societies. CESI has been a member of the Alliance since 2017.

the lower house of Poland’s parliament, passed the bill by 254 to 156 to restrict Sunday shopping to the first and last Sunday of the month until the end of 2018, only on the last Sunday in the month in 2019, and to ban it totally starting in 2020.....In a statement, the Polish bishops’ conference said the bill did not go far enough, and that everyone should be free from work on Sundays

#71 “…The biblical tradition clearly shows that this renewal entails recovering and respecting the rhythms inscribed in nature by the hand of the CREATOR. We see this, for example, in the law of the SABBATH. On the Seventh Day, God rested from all His work. He commanded Israel to se aside each Seventh Day as a day of Rest, A Sabbath.
#206 “A change in lifestyle could bring HEALTHY PRESSURE to bear on those who wield political, economic and social power. This is what consumer movements accomplish by boycotting certain products.
#237 “…Sunday, like the Jewish Sabbath, is meant to be a day which heals our relationships with God, with ourselves, with others and with the world. SUNDAY is the day of the resurrection, the ‘first day’ of the new creation…”

Now I realize many who challenge the 7th day, say they do not promote Sunday either. They go on the "everyday" is alike and a time to rest in Christ.

we are not to give the least credence to the day line theory. It is a snare of Satan brought in by his own agents to confuse minds. You see how utterly impossible for this thing to be, that the world is all right observing Sunday, and God's remnant people are all wrong. This theory of the day line would make all our history for the past fifty-five years a complete fallacy. But we know where we stand. . . . {3SM 318.4}

Well, Adventists in the South Pacific Islands have made Sunday the day of worship, in spite of EGW's warning that Satan would use the day line as a trap to get Adventists to worship on Sunday!




The reference to "past 55 years" in this case were 1845 - 1900 --the years the Adventist church discovered the prophetic truth about the Sabbath.

Have any of you read the material from the following Canadian Lord's Day Association's web site???:

http://clda.ca/magazines.php

Very interesting material there from the 19th Century.

They were correct theologically in just about everything to do with the Sabbath, except for the changing of the Sabbath from the seventh day to the first day.

What did they hold as the reasoning for the change?

I worked on the Wikipedia page on this issue, and I couldn't come up with a good answer. So do they continue with the day the missionaries gave them....

"Now, my sister, . . . I write . . . to tell you that we are not to give the least credence to the day line theory. It is a snare of Satan brought in by his own agents to confuse minds. You see how utterly impossible for this thing to be, that the world is all right observing Sunday, and God's remnant people are all wrong. This theory of the day line would make all our history for the past fifty-five years a complete fallacy. But we know where we stand. . . . {3SM 318.

And yes, Adventist continue keeping Sunday in the Tongan Islands, ignoring the IDL and deifying the 180th meridian, to this day.

180th meridian? Have you ever looked at the IDL? Who sets the Date Line? International agreement, right?

While some Adventists over there may indeed be honest, and some may be honestly ignorant of the issue, I believe the majority are either intentionally ignorant refusing to research the issue themselves, or are justifying escaping "Sabbath keeping hardship".

But the fact remains, there is NO Biblical support for Sunday to replace the 7th day Sabbath.

Show me (and I'm not Ulrich)

from scripture where there is a COMMAND to replace Sunday for the 7th day Sabbath.

I've been through all the supposed REASONS, but have never seen a Biblical command, or evidence that God sanctified and blessed and rested on the 1st day Sunday.

Additionally, Saturday keepers are unable to articulate the reasons people keep Sunday. They are content to claim "It's not in the Bible" and leave it at that. So they don't actually KNOW why others keep Sunday.

One convicted of a DUI had reasons for drinking and driving. They also will have reasons for driving with a suspended license. But just because one believes they have very good reasons for believing something does not mean it is right.

JAK, The Bible speaks of the saints keeping the commandments of God. Do you believe keeping the 7th day Sabbath is one of the commandments of God?

What similarities do you see in the following verses?

Rev 14:7 And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

Ex 20:11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

What I'm saying is that no one has yet articulated the ACTUAL reason Sunday keepers keep Sunday; you are all hedging around the bush.

The first text (Rev. 14:7) is not about the Sabbath at all.

In Revelation 13-14, first the Image of the beast demands worship on pain of death. His demand must be viewed in opposition to the One who deserves worship: the Lamb, the Image and Glory of the Invisible God. Further, it is the Image of God who "made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water," NOT the Image of the beast.

But the fact remains -- there is NO Biblical command that replaces the 7th day Sabbath with Sunday.

Focusing on this single aspect of the Saturday/Sunday question is akin to rejecting the Trinity doctrine because the word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. Most (I would say all) doctrines are derived from many references, texts, and understandings, and rightly so; one should look at the whole picture when forming doctrine.

It sounds like you just said, we should either reject both the trinity doctrine and the replacement of the 7th day Sabbath with Sunday or accept them both.

Focusing on this single aspect of the Saturday/Sunday question is akin to rejecting the Trinity doctrine because the word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. Most (I would say all) doctrines are derived from many references, texts, and understandings, and rightly so; one should look at the whole picture when forming doctrine.


There is also "NO Biblical command" for all GENTILES to keep the Sabbath; only (at best) implied suggestions.

So if you want to offer a legitimate argument to keep Saturday Sabbath, start looking at the whole picture...

I noticed you completely side-stepped that issue when Kland questioned you on that point.

If you think that command does not apply to Gentiles -- that would imply a belief that the ten commandments as a whole do not apply to Gentiles.

And I don't believe you.

Thirdly, I don't believe anyone was EVER saved by law, not in the NT or the OT, everyone who is saved is saved by grace. The law has NEVER saved anyone. The function of the law is to point out sin and our need for a Savior. (Romans 3:20)

Is there a possibility that you had a wrong concept of God's commands?

Do you disbelieve this point --

BEFORE THE CROSS, when the Rich Young Ruler asked Jesus "What must I do to be saved?" Jesus answered in terms of the Law and commandment keeping...He did NOT say believe in God, or Me....

AFTER THE CROSS, when the jailer asked Paul and Silas the exact same question, "They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved....

The cross brought an end to the Old Covenant of rules, regulations, ceremonies and ordinances.
It brought in the New Covenant in Christ's blood. (Luke 22:20)


Well...they {ten commandments] don't [apply to Gentiles]. Or to anyone else either.

With the New Covenant came a new commandment. (John 13:34)
End of Commandments.

I don't believe anyone was EVER saved by law, not in the NT or the OT, everyone who is saved is saved by grace. The law has NEVER saved anyone. The function of the law is to point out sin and our need for a Savior. (Romans 3:20)

None of those 8th day "reasons" support Sunday as the Sabbath.

Circumcision is on the eighth day AFTER BIRTH when a babies blood clotting substances reach full strength -- during the first days of a newborn’s life, the amount of blood clotting material is limited, so that even a small cut is liable to cause serious danger for a newborn. So let a full week go by before circumcising a newborn.

If a baby is born on a Tuesday, then Tuesday is their first day, and the next Tuesday is their 8th day of life.

Priests consecration.
You assume it began on a Sabbath? Yet that is pure assumption. Yet even if it did and they stay in the temple for a full week, it does not make their "coming out" a new Sabbath -- it would again be Saturday.

There are several other week long "cleansing" ceremonies, the seven day cleansing can begin on any day. They undergo this ritual immediately after contamination. If a priest is "contaminated" he can't serve till he undergoes a week long cleansing. It may begin on a Monday, (day one) and end the next Monday (day eight)

Feast of Tabernacles
took place from the 15th to the 22nd of Tishri, it lasted a full week, but it was not tied to the weekly cycle --

There's NOTHING here to make Sunday the "new day of worship"

any more than those who point to John 20:20

Following His resurrection on Sunday, Jesus had appeared to the disciples in the upper room, AFTER SUNSET. (By Jewish reckoning this was already Monday)

Dedication, it is sad to see you continually twist scriptures in any way possible to support your pre-conceived ideas. It's been years I've have known you and you have persisted in this path so numerous time.

my goal is not to support Sunday as the "new" Sabbath so to establish a new worship day. I said very clearly in my first post that BOTH the Sabbath Law and the 8th day laws are important and have different function in the plan of salvation.

My issue with dedication is her insistence on twisting my position to suit some far-fetched interpretation and then attacking that interpretation, which is nowhere near what I was trying to say. This is the thing that wears me out and is discouraging to the point that I eventually loose interest in constantly fighting her wrong views and outlandish interpretations of what I was trying to say.

Yeah...broke my own rule there...
Rule #57: "Never respond to kland. He has no idea what anyone is talking about."

Elle, the fact that dedication twists Scripture is not so much of a problem in itself; because no one has a perfect understanding of God's word we all twist Scripture as we struggle to know what God wants, etc. We often don't recognize our twisting, but sometimes it is intentional.

My issue with dedication is her insistence on twisting my position to suit some far-fetched interpretation and then attacking that interpretation, which is nowhere near what I was trying to say. This is the thing that wears me out and is discouraging to the point that I eventually loose interest in constantly fighting her wrong views and outlandish interpretations of what I was trying to say. She has absolutely no interest in discussion other than proving that she is right and you are wrong.

What love. That's just hurtful. And cannot be true. Remember logic class? "No idea, anyone." Words that usually are never true.

Or could it be, you made a mistake in argument and I pointed it out to you, and you didn't like it?

If your goal is not to show if Sunday was made a day of worship or not, then you are off topic and should start a new thread.

My whole point (which you call twisting the scriptures) was to show that "the eighth day" after a given day falls on the same day a week later. If something begins on Tuesday, Tuesday is the FIRST day of that sequence, and the next Tuesday is the eighth day.

I wasn't "TWISTING" -- the 8th day argument is one often encountered by those who promote Sunday, which is the topic of this thread.

any more than those who point to John 20:20

Following His resurrection on Sunday, Jesus had appeared to the disciples in the upper room, AFTER SUNSET. (By Jewish reckoning this was already Monday)

A day is from evening to evening in scripture.

When Jesus appeared to the disciples in the upper room, it wasn't just at dusk -- it was after sunset.

Read the story again --
Jesus walks with two disciples to Emmaus.
They arrive in Emmaus when "it is toward evening, and the day is far spent".

But that is NOT the time Jesus appeared to the disciples in the upper room. He went in to have supper with the two in Emmaus.
When they sit down to eat, they recognize him, Jesus disappears, and the two jump up and hurry back to Jerusalem.

How long do you think it took them to get back to Jerusalem? It's 60 furlongs or about 12 kilometers -- and they didn't have any cars only their own feet to take them back to Jerusalem.

Those two arrive in Jerusalem and tell the disciples their whole experience, and the disciples are amazed.

Now calculate the time.

It was already evening, or beginning of dusk, when they arrived in Emmaus.

They prepare supper

Recognize Jesus at supper.
Hurry 12 kilometers back to Jerusalem.
Tell the disciples the whole story of everything they had experienced "in the way".

You are looking at about two hours at least AFTER evening is first mentioned. And only then does Jesus appear to the twelve in the upper room.

So no -- your harsh and judgmental accusations are ill founded. Jesus did appear to the 11 disciples in the upper room AFTER sundown.

Yet, no sanctity is given to a weekly Sunday, in any of them.

My answer was YES. I provided Biblical text saying the first day of the week or the 8th day was said to be a "holy convocation" -- a Sabbath.

I did not say that it replaces the 7th day Sabbath laws. I don't believe that we need to be either in one camp or the other to be in this discussion. I'm in BOTH camp for I see that BOTH the 7th day law and the 8th day laws are Biblical.

If you are going to talk about "the 7th day law and the 8th day laws", then why did you exclude from your statement, "1st day laws"? Isn't that unbalanced to do that?

Both the wave-sheave(==Christ resurrection) and Pentecost(==the Church who are the loaves baked with leavened) are "first fruits" ceremonies.

It is interesting to note that the wave-sheaf is NOT declared as a Sabbath; whereas Pentecost is. Most Christians today validates Sunday observing relating to Christ resurrection when in the law the wave sheaf was not declared as a holy convocation or Sabbath day. However, the resurrection day in the Fall Feast (the Feast of Trumpet) is declared as a Sabbath day.

So after some pondering,the thoughts that came to me is that it shows that God is putting some emphasis of the fulfillment of the "first Fruits" on the Church and not on Christ. This made sense to me when pondering on the meaning of the Sabbath given in Ex 20:11 is to "hollowed[qadesh] it". qadesh means "to consecrate, sanctify, prepare, dedicate" Christ doesn't need to be sanctify. He always been without sin. He's the ONE who sanctify US.

So that could be why the declared Sabbath days in the 8th day laws are focus when the fulfillment is on the Church members like Pentecost and the day of Trumpet (which is when the 1st resurrection happens) and not on Jesus resurrection day on the wave-sheaf. We see this also for the day of Passover when the unblemished lamb is killed -- Passover is NOT a Sabbath day; whereas the 1st day of unleavened bread and the 7th day of unleavened bread are Sabbaths that focus on US when we are to eat bread without leavened by following Jesus' lead whose life was always without leavened (sin).

Again, You can't even support when the year [of the "actual" feast dates] starts. Relevant here, is the 7th day Sabbath is based upon what verses "your" 1st/8th day laws are based upon what?

A clue would be, what would 10th day laws be based upon?

Elle: My answer was YES. I provided Biblical text saying the first day of the week or the 8th day was said to be a "holy convocation" -- a Sabbath.

(Notice you mentioned here, "first day". And you said, "Biblical text")

Elle: I'm in BOTH camp for I see that BOTH the 7th day law and the 8th day laws are Biblical.

(Notice you ONLY mentioned here, 7th day law and the 8th day laws)

kland: If you are going to talk about "the 7th day law and the 8th day laws", then why did you exclude from your statement, "1st day laws"? Isn't that unbalanced to do that?

Elle: No, it's not a 1st day law. If I were so keen to prove Sunday; I guess I could of give it a spin by calling it a 1st day law but then I would of been mis-representing God's word. We need to be careful not to do that because that is in essence being a false prophet.

Exactly where are you talking about in scripture? You said above, 1st day and 8th day. You included 1st day as Biblical. So 1st day is not "mis-representing God's word".

Elle: I named these the 8 days laws because it comprise both -- the 7 days law + the 1st day. So I called it the way the Bible defines it.

Notice, you said, "1st day".

Elle: Some of the laws, like the wave-sheaf and the 1st day of Tabernacle both fall on a 1st day of the 8 days cycle. The 1st day of Tabernacle is said to be kept as a "holy convocation",

So again, why did you exclude from your statement, "1st day laws"? Isn't that unbalanced to do that? Why did you pick-and-choose "8th day" over the other days mentioned? What guidelines do you use to pick one and avoid the other?

The 8 days laws are the circumcision(7days + 1), the dedication of priests(7days + 1), Pentecost(7x7weeks + 1), the 8 days of Tabernacle(7days + 1), and the Jubilee(7x7weeks of years + 1) which all have the 7 days weekly model + 1 day = 8 days.