So what is the next question, Daryl?

We know that the devil using the serpent, as in making it appear that the serpent was actually speaking in the the devil by having taken possession of the serpent, tempted and was successful in deceiving Eve, but who tempted Adam?

Can we say that the devil was using Eve as a medium? The devil had used the serpent as a medium before -- why not do the same but by using Eve this time?

So basically the answer is the same -- the devil -- but via Eve this time?

So from Scripture we have the story of the fall of Man: Eve is tempted by the Serpent, eats the fruit, gives some to Adam, who eats and voila---Man falls.

Essentially we are in OUR predicament today because:
A woman
Listened to a voice (A talking animal, of all things)
Did something she was told not to
Which unleashes Hell on the world.

Seriously?

How is this story essentially different from Pandora and her famous box?

In that story we have:
A Woman
Who listens to a voice
Does something she was told not to
Which unleashes Hell on the world.

Both stories are found in ancient writings, and yet we believe one and not the other.

BOTH stories:
A) cast WOMEN as the source of evil, and
B) support the spiritually abusive "male headship" bull*hit being so militantly promoted and supported by those who worry only about maintaining the status quo and whose employment and or power and influence it might affect.

• We believe the one and not the other because the one is true and the other is not. There was no box, and no such person as Pandora. We believe the Bible because there was a Garden of Eden in which the first human beings, created by God, lived. They chose to do something wrong and so forfeited any claim to the Tree of Life.
  
  The Tree of Life was a gift, a promise. One does not, of oneself, demand a gift nor decide that one is deserving of a promise. A gift is given to one for whom there is much affection in a relationship. Does a man give anniversary presents to all the women in his neighbourhood?
  
  Having lost the gift of Eternal Life, what ensued was "hell on earth". He who puts his hand in the fire will be scared for life. But the promise still remains. If anyone turns to God through Christ, as Jesus has said, he will not perish but have everlasting life. Remember that.
   
• As regards male headship: Jesus chose 12 men and said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Mat. 19:28
  
  Are you going to rebel in heaven because 12 men and no women were chosen from earth to be head, leader, and judge along with Jesus Christ who was a man Himself? Are you planning on confronting God on the first day there about Adam being a man and not a woman? Shall the clay say to the potter, "What are you making?" Is it not within the potter's power to look upon the intractable lump in His hand and smash it?
  
  Is it not written this way? ...
  
  
  Originally Posted By: Job 40:1-5

  Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said: "Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it."
  
  Then Job answered the Lord and said: "Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth. Once I have spoken, but I will not answer; Yes, twice, but I will proceed no further."
  
  How it then, you do not bow your head in shame?

///
 

Hope that's workin' for you...



Maybe I am. ******* STAFF EDIT ******* I don't answer to you.

There could be more to this story than what most denominations has as an "official" story. As I mentioned in post #186531 :

According to Isaiah 14, satan Adam wanted to exalt himself above God.


That's a good point how these two stories amount to both blaming Eve.

You know that this "spiritually abusive "male headship" bull*hit" is found in the Bible if you read the Bible literally. And that's where the main problem lies of most interpretation. Many haven't understood yet that God talks in "dark speeches" (chiydah, which means a riddle, a puzzle to be solved).

Num 12:6 "6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. 7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. 8 With him(Moses) will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; H2420 and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

In this dispute, Aaron & Miriam was claiming to be an equal prophet to Moses (see Num 12:2); but God Himself said that was not so. Moses was more than a prophet by which Moses understood God's language whereas prophets don't. That's the same case with most people including EGW. We are far from understanding God's symbolic or puzzled language like Moses or Paul had.

Take note that Jesus also spoke in parables -- another form of riddle.

Concerning "male headship bull*hit", we end up with such interpretaton when we read scripture literally. However, if we look at scriptures more closely we will find that there's no female gendered language attributed to the "sons of God". However we know that woman will be saved also. Then why does the Bible never speaks of the "daughters of God"?

Because the spiritual maturity is symbolized throughout the Bible as being a male.....because a male is able to pass on the SEED (the seed of the gospel). God always uses the natural realm to explain the spiritual realm.

Also, as we know in the natural, boys are not physically capable of producing the seed. Even if they become capable ... according to scriptures they need to be trained before hand and supervised by the priests before they can enter the ministry. 30 is the age of [spiritual] maturity in the law. John the Baptist and Jesus both were 30 when they started their ministry.

Whereas, a female never can produce a seed. She is (symbolically) the recipient of the seed by which portrays someone that haven't received the gospel seed yet.

So if we take the symbolic meaning and apply it to someone's spiritual maturity level... a man that haven't received the gospel seed yet is symbolically a woman....however, a woman that is spiritually mature that can pass on the gospel seed to someone else is symbolically a man according to scriptures.

Elle, your posts are always interesting to read. COSMICAllY flawed theology, but interesting.


Being "found in the Bible" does not make something "Biblical." We also "find in the Bible":
- Incest
- polygamy
- genocide
- Heaven located beside Hell
- keeping of feast days
- sex with your brother's wife if he dies
- stoning your disobedient children
- etc., etc., etc.

I believe the words of Scripture mean exactly what they say, unless there is a specific reason to understand them symbolically.
Therefore, as I've said in other posts, I cannot agree with your system of interpreting Scripture by "dark riddles" and spiritual laws and hidden meanings. I'm sure it works great for you, but not for me.

So how do you read these text JAK? Do you ignore them? Do you say it applied only to Moses time? ???


I do agree that Scripture means what they say, but not exactly. Most of the time some sort of symbolism is attach to it. Like for example in the animals sacrifices, it does mean that a death is involve but it was symbolized by different types of animals. Each animals represents different aspects of Jesus' nature. Plus each ritual details represents different LEGAL aspect that pertains to the plan of salvation. These are all symbolically written in "dark speeches"(puzzle to be solved).

The 7 items you provided above, I do see the symbolism in 4 of them. Remember Jesus said that all the law(Torah == first 5 books) will be fulfilled. (Jesus said "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Mat 5:18)

So these texts that appears "non-God-like" will be fulfill by Jesus in some ways. I don't believe they are fulfilled literally, but symbolically showing the spiritual realm.

- polygamy : God had 2 wives, Israel and Judah (see Jer 3; Hos 2:2; etc...)

- keeping of feast days : In brief, feasts relates to our spiritual growth in 3 steps. With Passover God describes that only Jesus righteousness save us. Jesus righteousness is imputed to us. Pentecost is between Passover and Tabernacle. It is the sanctification process that Jesus will employ to bring us to spiritual maturity. Tabernacle is our glorification when we will abide in God's house surrounded with "live branches" which equates to God's glory / immortality. These are all described symbolically.

- sex with your brother's wife if he dies : Jesus is our eldest brother who died childless. We are to beget (passing the gospel seed) children to Him. (1Co 4:15 "for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel." see also Phm 1:10 )

- stoning your disobedient children : Those that remain "disobedient" during their lifetime will resurrect after the Millennium and face the white throne judgment. Stoning was always done by a group of people after they had reached a verdict. At the Great white throne, the 144K will judge with Jesus. Yes death is involved but it is the 2nd death (submitting our will to God ==spiritual death -- the same death we have at baptism -- "every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess") and not the 1st death (the physical death).


? I think you didn't have a chance to give this a thorough thought. I don't think that works for you...for if it did... you will need to go against much scriptures. Anyway here's some reasons why I think you haven't give this some serious reflection :

-God said very straight forward in Num 12:8 that He speaks in "dark speeches" -- check out the definition and usage of the Hebrew word H2420-chiydah https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H2420&t=KJV
-all over the Bible there's lots and lots of symbolism He employs to explain to us the spiritual realms and His plan,
-Jesus always spoke to the crowd in parables that had hidden meanings,
-the book of Revelation is big time written in symbolism and filled with hidden meanings,
-and His laws are spiritual as Paul said in Rom 7:14 "the law is spiritual".

As I mentioned previously, Elle, we differ on our view of Scripture.

I'm not sure what texts you are referring to.


I do not agree. Although Scripture DOES contain some language that is symbolic, I cannot agree that all (or most) of it has hidden symbolic meaning. Scripture means exactly what it says; no more, no less. Do not add to, and do not subtract from.

Those seven items were not intended to address symbolism, but rather to show that just because "it's in the Bible" does not make it "Biblical."

What??? God doesn't have ANY wives. And that certainly does not justify polygamy.

The life and death of Jesus released us from the observance of feast days.

What?? What??? This is getting too strange!

Stoning children has nothing to do with the resurrection or "white throne judgement."

Not sure where you got THAT from because the way I read it God said He DOES NOT speak in dark speeches. He also tells us to "come, let us REASON TOGETHER." You can't do that with dark speeches and symbolism and hidden meanings.

I do agree that the Bible does contain symbolism, but to extrapolate from that to say that ALL the Bible is symbolic is unwarranted and, in my opinion, unsupportable.