Maybe we should ask, what is the connect of Daniel 9 and Daniel 12?

Good question IMO. If Daniel 9 is relevant to both the first and second advents there should be a connection. So is there a "repeat and expand" principle at work between 9 and 12?

The central idea in both is the cleansing and atonement of sin and the establishment of righteousness in the saints. Adventists say that the last part of Daniel 9 applies only to the first advent but we're unique in that. Other Protestants generally see both applications. The majority take the final week or the final half week and apply it to the end.

But of course scripture is the test, not what others believe. The reason it must also apply to the end, whether the last week only or the entire period in literal time or in some other way, is that it has not been completely fulfilled. The vision isn't sealed up and everlasting righteousness established among the redeemed until the 144K are sealed as an earnest or pledge of the full and final harvest.

Of the possible future options I mentioned, I don't know which is correct and that's not that important. What is important is to be looking for a future fulfillment so we don't miss it. When we can say with certainty that a prophecy has not been fulfilled in every particular then we can know beyond a doubt that it has a future application. This is one of Miller's rules of interpretation.

One of the reasons we're justified in seeing an end-time application to the final verses of Daniel 9 is that it, like Daniel 12, warns against the abomination of desolation. For most Adventists that carries no weight but shouldn't it? Christ warns us at the end of time that it's important to study and understand the prophecies of Daniel on this point. If we limit out focus to Daniel 11 and 12 we're liable to miss important information in Daniel 7 to 10 that cover the same topic and fail to come to an accurate understanding of this final desolating power, the beast, the image of the beast and Babylon.

But what animates my study on this point is the parallels I see to the sealing of the 144K in Revelation 7 and 14. Daniel 9 is all about the establishment of the New Covenant seal of God in the foreheads of the 144K. To me it's an awesome thought that everlasting righteousness will be established first in the 144K, that greatest event in the history of the church that all of creation looks for with the most intense anticipation and longing - the establishment of the covenant and the revelation of the sons and daughters of God. When this occurs if our hearts are in tune with the choirs of heaven the strain of victory will steal on our ears: "Here is the patience of the saints, here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus".

While I believe God is also at work in the lives of many people, yet much of what is happening in the religious world in America is screaming out to me, that prophecy predicting the end of freedom is being fulfilled. It is absolutely uncanny how a lot of visions pointing to this end?

Where is this leading?

Matt. 24:24 For there shall arise
... false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

A lot of visions and "signs and wonders" taking place in our time, are pushing as GOD'S PLAN, the cleansing of America's political system and returning the nation back to God, through legislative power.
Exactly what will this bring? -- not blessings, but the greatest time of trouble this world has ever seen.

Satan's last Great Drama -- is enforced righteousness and worship WHICH WILL SEEM like truth (at first).

Satan plays cleverly -- his last great deception will be a deception EXTREMELY CLOSE to truth.


Watch this video --
Don't stop near the beginning -- see the actual video clips of what is being said by influential voices and compare it with prophecy.



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On the one hand I completely agree with you that the work of salvation, will not be completed until everlasting righteousness is fully established, the transgression is finished, and sin is brought to an end.

I also agree that the sealing is very much part of the work of salvation. It is an important part of prophecy.

However, I see Daniel 9 assuring us that the New Covenant was fully confirmed and ratified at the cross. The sealing work was not just future, Paul assures his readers it was taking place back then. (Ep 1:13 and 4:30)
However, I fully agree that a special end time seal must be placed on the last generation believers before the releasing of the last crises upon the world, yet even for them, they overcome the wiles of the devil by the blood of the Lamb and word of their testimony. (Rev. 12:11) It's all based on the cross!
The center point of Daniel's prophecies is Daniel 9 And at this center the focuse is on the cross and the confirmation of the New Covenant there --
Without that positive assurance there would be no "sealing" or "victory over the beast and his image".
The sacrifice made on the cross, did bring in righteousness, and made possible the end of sin in the lives of those who abide in Christ.

I guess, where my disagreement comes in is the link with how many religious groups interpret Daniel 9.
And possibly the way some in Adventism have been given a narrow view of Daniel, so people don't see the big picture given us, and so turn to other sources.

For example why would you think Daniel 7-10 has little to do with end time in the Adventist historicist understanding? Those chapters have large amounts of information to help us understand things for the end time, they do define the final desolating power, and Babylon, as well as the cleansing work for the saints. All the prophecies in Daniel are layered on top of each other, reaching from Daniel's time clear to the end of time, and yes! they give the information of the things you have mentioned as being important!




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Agreed! It should carry weight, we need to have understanding on the matter.
However, the abomination of desolation is introduced in Daniel 8:11-13 with parallel references in chapter 11:31 and in chapter 12:11.

And note Revelation's use of the word.

Rev. 17.4-5
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


The abomination IS FALSE/PAGAN WORSHIP.
It is better translated as the "desolating sacrilege".

Thus the "abomination of desolation" the "transgression of desolation" and the "desolating sacrilege" are all the same thing. It is a SINFUL FORM OF WORSHIP that would commit the sacrilege of trampling on and desolating the things and the people that rightfully belong to God.

In Daniel 9 it was the Romans raising their pagan standards on holy ground. Mark records, "When ye shall see the abomination . . . standing where it ought not." Matthew's account speaks of it standing "in the holy place." Notice the following commentary: "When the idolatrous standards of the Romans should be set up in the holy ground, which extended some furlongs outside the city walls, then the followers of Christ were to find safety in flight." The Great Controversy, p. 26.

Daniel nine does not limit the "desolating power" to Jerusalem's overthrow by Rome --

Daniel 9 shows THE GREAT CONTROVERSY between two princes.
Messiah the Prince
And the prince (satan working through Rome) that makes sacreligious desolating abomination ---

The Roman prince continues "the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation,"

The consummation is Christ's second coming.

Daniel 8 and 11 show the abomination being set up in the middle ages -- again the Roman "prince" this time papal Rome.
He shall take away the daily, (truth concerning Christ's ministry) and they shall place the abomination (desolating sacrilege ) that makes desolate. (11:31)

What most miss in these chapters is the truth that the "abomination" is RELIGIOUS!
They think it's something totally against religion, but it is not -- it is religious-- sacrilegious.

Yes!, and if that's correct, then is it a stretch to think that the rest of the prophecy also encompasses the final generation of overcomers and also carries us to the end when the New Covenant is established in the hearts and minds of the remnant, the sealed?

Good point and insight about the abomination being primarily religious/sacrilegious. Very important. I'd only add that it is when these sacrilegious ideals find expression in legislation that the image will be formed and that national ruin and desolation will be the result.

And I second the idea that Daniel 7 and 8 also cover the whole span to the end when the abomination of desolation is unmasked for what it is by the Loud Cry of the fourth angel.

Well, there's Daniel 4, which some make a big do about for the future.

However, in Daniel 9, the only part I could see possibly could be considered future is the last phrase

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The question is, does it apply to the past, the future, or both.

The word for "desolate" is also used in verse 18,

Da 9:18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.

That's at the time of Daniel. So I cannot see that the last phrase of Chapter 9 requires a future application, but can apply to 70 AD. And in no case can the 70 weeks be split up as some do.

I thought the same for a long time, but yesterday I noticed that there is a separate reference to the final week. That the final week can be read separately gives support to the final week applying at the end without splitting up the 70.


On a different but related point, at the beginning of the thread I pointed out that the 70 weeks is divided into three periods of 7, 62 and 1 week for a 70 week total. We automatically combine the first two for 69 weeks and slough off the significance of the first division between the 7 and 62 weeks on the one hand but recognize and emphasize the significance of the second division on the other.

Nothing in scripture, especially in a key prophecy like this, can be safely ignored. Since there clearly is significance to the division of the 69 weeks from the final Messianic week, we should be looking into the significance of the first division as well. Also, it violates Millers rules to insist that the full prophecy is all historic unless the fulfillment of each particular including this division is clearly known. I don't remember anyone offering an historic explanation for this division between the 7 and 62 weeks but maybe I missed it. What happened at the end of week 7, 49 years from the fall of 457 BC which would be 408 BC? If there is nothing to point to, then we are to look for a future fulfillment IMO.

eh - read Nehemiah. Read William Miller. Read Uriah Smith. There is a clear description of what happened in the first 7 weeks. I'm actually quite surprised you express ignorance about the first division of the 70 weeks! Hint - Read Daniel 9:25.

There is something very strange about that Dan. 9 prophecy. It says in verse 26, "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off ..." However, there was no indication of his advent in the first place. How does one speak of the death of a man, except that man had been born? Why didn't Gabriel give hope? Wasn't that what Daniel was praying for? In fact, the entire prophecy ends on a dismal note. "And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate." v.27b

Why? The answer will amaze you.

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I agree with Kland that the 70 weeks are a continuous period of time.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city".

In other words, the Judean kingdom which had suffered devastation and was non existent at that point -- which was a chief burden on Daniel's heart as we see in his prayer,-- but the angel explains the Judean kingdom would be restored and given another 490 years of probation. 70 X 7 = 490.

What was God's ideal for this nation? It was for them to prepare to receive the Messiah when He came, and thus be a light to the Gentiles.

When were the 490 years to begin?

9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:

The command that would re-establish Jerusalem as a kingdom with certain legislative rights was given in 457 B.C.

The first seven weeks or (7 X7 = 49) forty nine years, scripture says were "troublous times" it was the time when the streets and walls were rebuilt.
We can read about those troublous times in the books 0f Ezra and Nehemiah.
In 408 BC Jerusalem was no longer lying in ruins, it's walls and streets were rebuild and restored. It was again the "capital" of Judea.

Nehemiah not only organized the rebuilding of the walls, he also established government. His work was finished in 408 BC when he left Jerusalem.

Next come the 62 weeks or (62 X7) 434 years. The first half of Daniel 11 also deal with those years when Judea was buffeted about by the Grecian kings, and finally conquered by Rome.

But then the hope of Israel -- the hope of all the world would come. The ONE that would bring salvation and confirm the covenant, and ratify it with His own blood.

He would come

Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, (49 years) and threescore and two weeks: (434 years)

That means 483 years after the decree for restoration was issued the Messiah would appear.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,

Deep significance here. Back in 408 BC Judea's restoration as a nation was fulfilled, so Judea could prepare for the coming Messiah! But instead of welcoming HIM, they "cut Him off" crucified Him, and the result was desolation and destruction perpetuated by the "king" they had chosen, when they cried out "we have no king but Caesar".

Yet the covenant was confirmed by Christ's own blood.
Salvation which brings in righteousness and puts an end to sin, was fully ratified!

Yes, the time which was given to Judea, and pointed to the coming of Christ, is fulfilled, yet the two streams or classes of people resulting from this prophecy continue.

1. Those who accept the Messiah, Jesus as their Savior and Lord, and allow the Holy Spirit to lead them into truth, and accept Christ --His righteousness, His cleansing us from sin,

OR

2. Those who accept the roman Prince, who only brings ultimate destruction and abomination.

Yes, these two classes go to the end of time, when both evil and righteousness will be revealed. Daniel 9 gives us the pivotal beginning of the cross.

We don't reapply the timeline, those 70 weeks pointed to Jesus.





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