The Death of the Testimonies
And the Triumph of the Church

Sabbath, September 17, 2016 I came across this statement below by Ellen White which was released for the first time in July of 2015. This prediction has never been publicly published and is nestled in among the 50,000 pages released by the White Estate so it's hard to say how many are aware of it now but probably few. Her statement struck me with force. Here Ellen White is writing to G.I. Butler who had recently resigned from the presidency of the General Conference (he would resume that position in 1877) and was at this time in denial of her testimony:



In her later writings she makes statements warning that this is entirely possible but none of her subsequent statements are so direct.

Notice above that in 1875 she had “more light on this point but cannot now give it”. Did she give more light on it later? She did. We'll look at some of it below. But first you might ask, doesn't Ellen White also say that the church will go through, that God's denominated people will remain faithful to the end? She does. So how can both statements be true?

Many of us unfortunately do not understand what she means by “denominated people” or “the church”. The scripture, the statements of Christ and those of Ellen White agree that the church, God's denominated people are those who maintain a vital connection with Him whose names are written in the book of life. Sown in among the faithful wheat are the tares that also grow with the wheat until the harvest, but they are not part of the true spiritual church. Notice:


So what about this last, well known statement above – who is she referring to? The church that appears as though it is about to fall but does not and goes through to victory are not those among us who have never been converted but instead are the faithful who under intense persecution appear to be on the verge of letting go of all hope and capitulating in despair. It is these that finally press through the darkness by faith and overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony because they loved not their lives unto the death. Adventists who have been unfaithful are generally not a part of this group. Some of them, thank the Lord, will repent at the eleventh hour and join those who contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. But do you think those who have been unfaithful habitually will do this? Can character be formed in an instant?

Those who press through the darkness described in inspiration (See Early Writings p. 269.) are anything but anarchists. By overcoming the darkness, the threatenings and the realities of persecution, they heed the call to “Come into line” under the Generalship of Christ. Because of their victory over the fear of persecution and death even if it be at the hands of loved ones, they are now fearless and there is perfect unity resulting in perfect organization among them. Many of us would say that this order will primarily be the organizational structure of Adventism. That there will be perfect order and discipline in the ranks of the remnant is clear, but it will be based primarily, not on a mechanical structure of an organization but on the bond of unity of the believers themselves who are cemented together by the love of the Truth.

Isn't it time friends that we wake up to the reality of the situation: Regarding the Testimonies we've been plainly told that “they will no longer live among God's people. They will be removed.” Now the next question is, in what way will they be removed? Consider carefully some of the poignant warnings that explain the process of their removal below.

Before quoting these, first an observation and then some background: The Testimonies explain and recommend themselves so it is wisdom to keep our commentary on these inspired topics to a minimum. Instead, here are excerpts from later testimonies that shed more light on the one above. The first one below was written to the church at Battle Creek, many of whom, like Elder Butler, were in denial at this point regarding the Testimonies. Written in June, 1882, originally this testimony was numbered 31 and was titled “The Testimonies Rejected”. It was renamed “The Testimonies Slighted” when it was republished in Testimonies Vol 5. As you read the following quote, notice not only the process of removal but also the hopeful outcome she describes as she concludes.



Six years later she warned again:



The Testimonies are not to be re-interpreted and wrested so as to make them of no effect. They are to interpret themselves just as the Bible is to be it's own interpreter. So there should be no committees, no official statements from the White Estate, and no dissection by the scholars. We've seen the results of these in the ineffective course the church has taken on women's ordination. As a courtesy to the leadership, they should be informed in case they are not already aware of this particular warning of the removal of the testimonies which plainly states that the church will reject them.

As Adventists our mutual obligation to one another is to be good stewards of our finds of truth. This find is like when the priests under Joash found the scroll of the law and realized that Israel was under God's judgment and would be rejected and dispossessed as God had said through Moses unless they repented. What if the priests had been unfaithful and not shared the warning? Aren't we under obligation to share this? Look at what Moses wrote in Deuteronomy 32 and how he riveted by a song his warning in the minds of the men of Israel that apostasy would indeed occur. This was as much his parting legacy as the blessings he pronounced on the twelve tribes that same day, but the record says that his warning was fully accepted by the men of Israel that day and they mourned the death of Moses for a full month. Similarly, shouldn't this warning and these promises of a remnant from our prophet be made as public as possible to all Adventists?

In a way, I wish I was wrong about these things and I could go along with those in the church who claim that Ellen White teaches the triumph of the Seventh-day Adventist Corporation – except at the very end when it will be illegal to be an Adventist. I'd remind those who teach this that during the first and second world wars the German branch of Adventism proclaimed it's allegiance to their government and betrayed faithful brothers to the authorities and to death who could not conscientiously bare arms for the Kaiser or the Nazi's. Today those who teach such things are like the Jews who, denying the prophecies of Moses said “The temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord”. So, while it's clear that we are to remain connected to the church through membership wherever possible, we need to also be prepared for the fulfillment of the prophecy so that we're not surprised if one day, we find ourselves, like the Apostles, the reformers and our German brothers, on the outside, our testimony silenced within Adventism, despite our best efforts to maintain the bond of love and unity among us.

But, “Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.” Luke12:32

Post Script by Ellen White:

God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. “Where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them.” [Matthew 18:20.] Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ’s church, for the presence of the high and holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church. Where two or three are present who love and obey the commandments of God, Jesus there presides; let it be in the desolate place of the earth, in the wilderness, in the city enclosed in prison walls. The glory of God has penetrated the prison walls, flooding with glorious beams of heavenly light the darkest dungeon. His saints may suffer, but their sufferings will, like the apostles of old, spread their faith and win souls to Christ and glorify His holy name. The bitterest opposition expressed by those who hate God’s great moral standard of righteousness should not and will not shake the steadfast soul who trusts fully in God. All things shall work together for good to those who love God. “This is the love of God, that ye keep His commandments.” [1 John 5:3.] They that will be doers of the Word are building securely, and the tempest and storm of persecution will not shake their foundation, because their souls are rooted to the eternal rock. {Lt108-1886.17}

Many of us unfortunately do not understand what she means by “denominated people” or “the church”.

God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. “Where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them.” [Matthew 18:20.] Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ’s church, for the presence of the high and holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church.

Charity, not to diminish what you're saying, but I'm confused as to your main point. Ellen White has said that not one in twenty will be saved, and I believe that is in reference to Adventists. So I had never assumed most Adventists would be saved, and saw evidence as to such. Had you thought most would be?

Isa 66:5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

Fair question Kland. I'm 59, a pastor's son and lifetime Adventist. In my lifespan the great majority of conservative Adventists who I've met and read think that the Adventist Church as a body will never reject the Testimonies. Like you and me, they are all aware of the "not one in twenty" and "not one in a hundred" statements but almost without exception the commonly held view is that our numbers may thin under persecution but the General Conference or whatever official organ represents Seventh-day Adventists will always remain true to scripture and the SOP. It will go through. This prophecy says that's incorrect.

My point in writing the paper is that we need to nerve ourselves for the eventuality that the cycle of purging that always spawns the remnant will be repeated at the end. The shaking results in the expulsion of the true believers, the "not one in twenty" who remain faithful. Because the unfaithful retain the assets and the structure they believe that by expelling the faithful men and women among them they've shaken and rid themselves of a pesky extreme and dangerous element. They'll exclaim, "Thank God!, Let the Lord be glorified!" as it says in Isaiah:

So it would be good to memorize this entire chapter because although there is this painful reality check here, it is a glorious prospect that the Lord holds out to us.

There will be a hatred kindled against the testimonies which is satanic. -- Letter 40, 1890. {1SM 48.4}

The Testimonies are not to be re-interpreted and wrested so as to make them of no effect.

• It doesn't matter. It is of no consequence.
   
• Jesus Christ Himself established the dividing line and test. "For God so loved the world," He said, "that He gave His Only-begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Is there anyone bold and audacious enough to change the dividing line and test, saying, "no but such and such are the goals"?
   
• Who has deceived you to cause you to study a different text from the one recommended by the Teacher of the class? Surely you must know that such a thing leads only to failure, to everlasting shame and contempt.
   
• Of every human being it will be asked, "Do you believe in the One whom God gave for a test, His Only-begotten Son, that you may follow and learn from; or not?" Therefore, do not change the text crying aloud in the streets, "THESE TESTIMONIES!"
   
• Prov. 30:5-6

///

Those who reject the Lord's invitation are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

Adventists universally think that they are "The Church."

In all my years in the SDA Church, at least in my neck of the woods, I never heard anybody say that the SDA Church is "The Church." Instead, I heard that "The Church" is made up of true believers (true Christians) in all the different churches.

After saying this, I do believe that the Lord raised up the SDA Church to proclaim truths that have been almost lost over the centuries, some of them being the seventh-day Sabbath and the State of the Dead.

In all my years in the SDA Church, at least in my neck of the woods, I never heard anybody say that the SDA Church is "The Church." Instead, I heard that "The Church" is made up of true believers (true Christians) in all the different churches.

Daryl - do you believe the Testimonies? God destroys no one. {5T 120.1}

That is true. John 3:16.

///

I'm glad you brought it up.

Shall we open a new thread for that?

Remember the FLOOD. They rejected knowledge even though God LOVED them. They perished (were destroyed)

Remember Christ. God loved Him, but did not spare Him from dying.

Those who reject knowledge reject God's love. They will face the consequences

Does God pour out His wrath or allow people to reap what they have sown?

No. This is about the testimonies, and now they are rejected, and they are being rejected in the most obvious ways and most don't want to see it.

Well when you have statements from the testimonies that oppose what scripture says and even oppose what the Church believes... like "God destroys no one" when SDA believe that at the Great White throne God will trow more than 90% of all the people that existed in a LITERAL lake of fire and will completely annihilate them....

Don't you see any problems with that statement? Isn't it a good reason for people to come to reject the testimonies?

That's why scriptures says in many places "God destroys" whereas no where we can find "Satan [or the devil] destroy". Do the search yourself and see what scriptures says.

That is why:

• Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His Only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should have everlasting life, and not perish."
   
• And told His disciples in Acts 1:8, "... you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
   
• So that Paul reminded the Corinthians , "And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified." 1 Cor. 2:1-2

Jesus Christ is the test, the dividing line, the Judge, the lightning rod and the hope of salvation. It is not right that anyone should supplant this test with something else or any other, saying, "Either you affirm this or that or you are anathema!"1

----------------------------

1 List of excommunicable offences from the Council of Trent of the Roman Catholic Church.

///

Is it not also written: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2Th 2:11, 12 KJV

Re 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

What is Apollyon?
active participle of 622; a destroyer (i.e. Satan):--Apollyon.

622. apollumi
to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Elle, do you think Rev 9:11 says the angel of the bottomless pit is a destroyer?

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary[antidikos,G476, an opponent (in a lawsuit)] the devil[diabolos,G1228,prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely], as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Does devour, gulp, swallow, drown count as destroying?

Re 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

What is Apollyon?
active participle of 622; a destroyer (i.e. Satan):--Apollyon.

622. apollumi
to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

ʼâbad, aw-bad'; a primitive root; properly, to wander away, i.e. lose oneself; by implication to perish (causative, destroy):

Elle, do you think Rev 9:11 says the angel of the bottomless pit is a destroyer?

Tx kland for moving the discussion forward.

Your over-extending the lion example while ignoring the context of the text. The lion picture is used to qualify the devil work as an ACCUSER, not as an destroyer.

That's why scriptures says in many places "God destroys" whereas no where we can find "Satan [or the devil] destroy". Do the search yourself and see what scriptures says.

Obviously the belief that all will eventually be saved and that the resurrection, rather than the time of rewards, is the means of then preparing people who rejected salvation in life to be put through a program whereby they are prepared to be saved, and eventually fitted for heaven --- all that is "rejecting the testimonies".

But to answer one question:
What did EGW mean by "God destroys no man"?
The context explains it.
Man fixes his own destiny.

You're welcome.
Yes, I figured you were laying out the bait so I gladly obliged.

"Over-extending"? Hmmm.....
I'll remember that use when someone points out something to me I don't like.

as a roaring lion,
seeking whom he may devour.

Sorry Elle, no over extension there. That's the main point of the verse.

Elle, you have just said/demonstrated, Satan does not destroy and nothing can disprove it.

So if something is disprovable, then it's merely a personally held opinion.

Obviously everyone should of figured out by now that I'm not bound by the SDA Church or EGW views.

Seems several on this thread have rejected the testimonies as being God's gift to light the way through the final great conflict...

Unfortunately of those who profess to believe the testimonies, there is a class that only adheres to their personal favorite "selected messages" … They select what they like and disregard everything else.

Instead of disregarding the Testimonies another class reads them in the light of a popular private understanding which is not the reading that EGW had in mind when she penned them. (The worst offenders often accuse me of doing that.)

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by Ellen White, whom He has appointed heir of His Spirit of Prophecy, through whom also He made available to us the Testimonies because of which His Church shall be purged of her rejectors, shaken out that those who remain shall be safe in the glory of her excellent name. Heb. 1:1-4

///

Elle, I'm trying to say, you often focus on the wrong thing.
1 Peter 5:8: seeking whom he may devour.

You focused on description.
The action is: Seeking to devour.

And Elle, another lost focus, the angel of the bottomless pit is not the same thing as having the keys to it.

Re 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

So does Satan have an evil angel over him?

So does Satan have an evil angel over him?

Yes....the adversary in a court of law is like a lion who seeks to devour(figuratively) you like an opponent in a court of law would. That's the context & setting of the adversary we deal with in 1Pet 5:8.
Tx for bringing this up and a good point. Yes I agree.


Rev 20 does not qualify that the angel of the bottomless pit of Rev 9 is Satan. Rev 20 doesn't even talk about the angel of the bottomless at all.

It only says that there's an angel with the key of the bottomless pit and he opened it up and chain satan -- so he wouldn't deceive the nations for a thousand years.

The bottomless pit is define as "the abode of the demons". Satan is in there as all other demon characters are there also. Also Rev7 says a bunch of locust came out of the smoke of the bottomless pit. Rev 11:7; 17:8 says there's beasts are from there too. So all kind of things comes out of the bottomless pit.

These locusts(symbolic term that represents in this case Islam) had a king over them that was said to be an "angel of the bottomless pit". So this angel can merely be "of" the bottomless pit and not necessarily THE angel of the bottomless pit, meaning he is the ruling angel over the bottomless pit. So that angel is not qualify as Satan in Rev 7 but only qualifies this angel as being the king over the bunch of locust.

So since Rev 20 doesn't talk about the angel of the bottomless pit no where, you have absolutely no Biblical text supporting your deduction.

Then I repeat....your word definition of abad and apollumi needs revising by re-reading how the Bible uses these words. It is by far only used to mean "destroy" but equally used as "lost" and "perish". So Abaddon is more accurately by its proper definition of 'abad as "the one that loses" than like you like to define it as "the one that destroys".


I really don't know. Something I haven't studied and I refuse to make assumptions. I know that you believe as we have been taught how to view some scriptures as Satan is the head. Maybe he is but since I haven't studied this I cannot answer. He could be the head and maybe he has someone else evil above him. But for sure the good angel that was given the key in Rev 20 is above Satan.

In the Book of Enoch Chapter 6 v.3 says Semjaza was the head of the fallen angels. I don't know if Satan is Semjaza or the Azazel character described in Chapter 8 and 9. For sure Semjaza and Azazel are two seperates angels. So I really don't know how to view this and I do need to study that question from scriptures alone.

But regardless if Satan is the head or not....coming back to Rev 20, it doesn't say anything about the angel of the bottomless pit. For sure Satan is an angel of the bottomless pit like any other angels that lives there.

What Rev 20 says is Satan got chained up because "that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

Again, the bible doesn't qualify Satan in Rev 20 as "the destroyer" but instead as the "deceiver" and that's why he is chained up and bound for a thousand years so he won't deceive the nations during the millennium.

Yes....the adversary in a court of law is like a lion who seeks to devour(figuratively) you like an opponent in a court of law would. That's the context & setting of the adversary we deal with in 1Pet 5:8.

Again Elle, is that idea disprovable?

If not, then it's merely a personally held opinion.

[i]1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary[antidikos,G476, an opponent (in a lawsuit)] the devil[diabolos,G1228,prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely], as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Seems several on this thread have rejected the testimonies as being God's gift to light the way through the final great conflict.

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by Ellen White, whom He has appointed heir of His Spirit of Prophecy, through whom also He made available to us the Testimonies because of which His Church shall be purged of her rejectors, shaken out that those who remain shall be safe in the glory of her excellent name. Heb. 1:1-4

Jesus came to this earth in order to save us --

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

That is the basic foundation!

A prophet is simply a messenger pointing us to Jesus and eternal realities. They are simply human beings like everyone else with a special work to do for God.

Jesus being our Savior doesn't mean God no longer speaks to us through prophets.
He has spoken through prophets in many different times and ways.

And God promised to send messages through the prophets:



Mainstream Christians look at us askew and tell us that God no longer speaks through prophets since the time of the apostles.

Yet the Bible says:
"Do not despise prophesying, but test everything; hold fast what is good. 1 Thess. 5:20,21. (RSV)
Yes, it behooves us to be cautious when it comes to modern prophets for Matthew 24:24 tells us that many false prophets will arise to deceive. However, Christ does not warn us against all prophets, but only false prophets. We are admonished to "test" prophesying. We are counseled not to despise prophesying. We are urged to hold fast to the true.


Now let's look at Revelation 1:1-3 here we read that "The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him, to show to His servants things which must shortly come to pass" "given to his servant John" (the prophet) "who bare record of the word and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of the things he saw. Blessed is he that reads and they that hear the words of this prophecy and keep those things which are written therein..."

Here the sequence is plain. The testimony of Jesus Christ is clearly linked to the prophecies of things that must come to pass, it is linked to God sending a message through a prophet (John in this case) that people may read and know and understand what must soon come to pass. Coupled with this is the admonition that this knowledge will change the person and they will "keep those things which are written."

If the testimony of Jesus is a gift to confirm the church looking for the coming of the Lord, (1 Cor.1:6,7) and if the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy (Rev. 19:10) and if the gift of prophecy is one of the gifts the Holy Spirit bestows upon a church to edify the church for "he that prophesies edifies the church, (1 Cor. 14:4) would it not be reasonable to expect God to give His last day church a prophet?


How has God dealt with people in the past? Before any great calamity struck, God always sent a message of warning to His people. "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he reveals his secret unto his servants the prophets," says Amos 3:7. The old testament prophets faithfully warned and entreated the people as destruction was descending upon them. Most all of these spokesmen for God were scorned, ridiculed, persecuted and some were even killed. Rarely was a prophet who predicted the end of worldly prosperity and called for a forsaking of sins, welcomed by either the majority of the people or even the popular religious leader. The religious leaders would usually rather take the old writings and interpret them in a pleasing fashion, then listen to the warnings and reproofs of a present day prophet.

Yet God sent these men to His people to warn them. This gives us another reason to believe that God would not allow the horrendous predictions of Revelation to come to pass before sending strong prophetic messages to warn the people. Revelation speaks of a massive deception to sweep the world. It warns of terrible things to befall those who follow the beast and his image. It speaks of only a remnant of faithful clinging to God's commandments and the faith and testimony of Jesus. Would not God make it plain to the people how to avoid the deceptions of the last days which Revelation predicts?

How do you interprete the following?

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God"