No, it's not a 1st day law. If I were so keen to prove Sunday; I guess I could of give it a spin by calling it a 1st day law but then I would of been mis-representing God's word. We need to be careful not to do that because that is in essence being a false prophet.

I named these the 8 days laws because it comprise both -- the 7 days law + the 1st day. So I called it the way the Bible defines it.

Some of the laws, like the wave-sheaf and the 1st day of Tabernacle both fall on a 1st day of the 8 days cycle. The 1st day of Tabernacle is said to be kept as a "holy convocation", a "Sabbath" by doing "no civil work". As noted, it is not the same with the wave-sheaf--Jesus' resurrection day despite it always falls on a Sunday like Pentecost.

The Feast of Trumpet is model after the wave-sheaf; so it is a 1st day type as both are resurrection days and are a first fruit type.

The Feast of Trumpet is said to be kept as a "holy convocation" a "Sabbath" in doing "no civil work"; as oppose to the wave-sheaf is not. In Post Post # 186871 I said the following :


So the Trumpet Feast is also a first fruit ceremony because it is the resurrection of the 144k who are the first fruits of man and the Leaders called to rule with Christ (Rev 20:5-6).

Check 1Thes 4:16 and 1Cor 15:52 and notice "trumpet" is in singular form. The law explains this. God told Moses to make 2 trumpets. The sound of ONE trumpet was to call only the Leaders(Num 10:4); the sound of both trumpets called the whole congregation(Num 10:3). These are the types of the two resurrections : the one before the Millennium and the one after it.


Like dedication's argument & focus which is with an old covenant mindset... you are looking for a specific day to start the Feasts from year to year, or time to start the 7th day Sabbath every week. What the Israelites kept in the past or even today...were meant to be understood as models -- patterns -- Types -- by which their prophetic fulfillment of these is based upon Christ's purpose for these laws with an New covenant understanding. We are to move forward to apply these with a new covenant understanding.

So some of these models like circumcision, the keeping of the Feast of Tabernacle, Day of Trumpet does not always fall on an actual 8th day(Sunday) from year to year. But these are meant to be models, patterns, TYPES that points to a future fulfillment.

We have seen in the Spring Feasts that the TYPES were fulfilled on the actual -- 8th day of the Week (Wave sheaf and Pentecost). I would expect that the fulfillment of the Fall Feast TYPES (Feast of Trumpet, 1st & 8th day of Tabernacle) will also fall on the actual 8th day (Sunday). It is the purpose of God's laws and how these TYPES are fulfill that are important versus on what exact day or time the old covenant form are to be kept.

The five 8th days laws are : circumcision, consecration of Priesthood, Pentecost, 8 days Feast of Tabernacle, and Jubilee. These are all 8 days laws and are very Biblical and all points to a New Covenant prophetic fulfillment of the presentation of the sanctified son. The same for the 7th day law -- it is a TYPE and a model that contribute to the first part of the FIVE 8th day laws listed above.

Paul gave us as an example that a physical circumcision is no longer needed because it comes out of an Old Covenant mindset. Circumcision was only an example of ONE law that was kept literally and physically. What he said about circumcision is to be applied to all other laws that are kept with an old covenant understanding -- like we, Adventist, do with the Sabbath day.

In Heb 7:12, Paul talks about a CHANGE (transfer) of the priesthood and in the law.

"For the priesthood being changed[G3346, metatithemi], there is made of necessity a change[G3331,metathesis] also of the law." Heb 7:12.

The proper definition of metatithemi is transfer. The English translation of "change" meaning is not "abolish" or "dispose" like some people like to spin it. Alchemy brings both G3346 (metatithemi) and G3331(metathesis) in Post#179416. And then in Post#179501,
Post#179525, and Post#179648 we have further comments about this change-transfer specifically in the Priesthood. Actually reading the whole discussion from page 2 and 3
is quite interesting.

Heb 7:12 is a key text showing us that the law was not abolish but there were a change -- a transfer of the law from the old covenant to the new covenant. The transfer of the law from the old to the new covenant is what we need to seek to understand about any law given in the Torah.


10th day law??? I wouldn't label it in such manner; but yes these events on the 10th day is also a law like any other events that happens in the Torah on any day (or with no days mentioned) which are all prophetic in nature and are considered as law.

But I wouldn't categorize these events that happened on the 10th day as the same as the 8th day laws. These 5 laws all points to the presentation of the sanctified son which is the ultimate goal of the whole plan of salvation. The 8th days law describes the top of the goal of the plan of salvation whereas anything below (like the events that happened on the 10th days) describe one item on the way to get there.

Below is getting a little off-topic, but two (#2 & #3 below) of 10th day events does have a relation with the Jubilee law which is one of the 8th day laws.

What happened in the Law on the 10th Day and its connection with the Jubilee Law that is another 8th day law

1. Selection of the Passover lamb : The 10th day on the first month of Abib is the selection of the lamb. It is not declared as a day of a "holy convocation" or a Sabbath.

2. Crossing the Jordan to the Promise Land : Then after 40 years of wondering in the desert, God did make Israel crossed over the Jordan to enter the promised land on the 10th day of the 1st month not on the 7th month as initially instructed 38 years before.

3. Day of Jubilee or Day of Atonement : As I briefly mentioned, the spring Feast days (1st month) can be seen as a model of the Fall Feast days (7th month). We see the 1st, 10th, 15th, and 22nd day repeated in both the Spring Feast and Fall feast.

So we also have a 10th day on the 7th Month that we know by "the day of atonement". But in actuality that day can be EITHER a day of mourning and repenting OR a day of Jubilee where the Jubilee Trumpet is sounded (Lev 25:9). It's been a day of mourning and repenting since it was first instituted because the Israelites been in a time of unbelief.

The Israelites when they dis-belief the good report of Caleb and Joshua before entering the promised land on the 1st appointed time(after 50 Jubilee cycle from Adam); they were to sound the Jubilee Trumpet on the 10th day of the 7th month because it is actually an announcement of the liberation of all the slaves at the end of Jubilee. So because of their lack of faith they turned the first 10th day of the 7th month into a day of atonement.

There's a connection between #2 (the crossing in the promised land) and #3 (the Jubilee Trumpet) and the end of the Jubilee cycle (which is one of 8th day law).

But Israel entered the promised land on the 1st month after 40 years being in the desert. This show they didn't enter at the appointed time on the 7th month. So their crossing was not a full fulfillment but only a Type.

Here it shows that TYPES are models of time and not to be taken as exactitude of time.

However, God still made them enter on the 10th day but on the 1st month and not on the 7th month -- BECAUSE their fathers didn't have faith to enter at the appointed time (on the 7th month) 38 years before. That whole generation died in the desert and God let the next generation enter but not on the appointed time since the next generation didn't have the faith required nor did they had the sword of the Spirit.

Faith comes by hearing the utterance(rhema) of God (Rom 10:17). They refuse to hear God voice after being afraid of hearing only the introduction of the law in Exo 19 & 20. You need to be able to hear God's voice to be able to conduct proper spiritual warfare with the spiritual sword. So they entered with a physical sword on a small portion of land laying down the TYPE physically. Good thing God allow them to enter on a small portion of land so to not cause too much destruction.

Israel failure still pointed to a future time when the Church equipped with the spiritual sword would go thru the same events and enter on the appointed time; but would NOT FAIL this time because they got the proper tool. They would wage war with Mystery Babylon; not on a small portion of land, but in the whole world in the goal to liberate all the people from the captivity to Babylon. That's where we are today.

I don't know if we will have the Jubilee Trumpet sounded on this coming 7th month Feast. That would be wonderful if this is fulfilled this year.

Elle: My answer was YES. I provided Biblical text saying the first day of the week or the 8th day was said to be a "holy convocation" -- a Sabbath.

(Notice you mentioned here, "first day". And you said, "Biblical text")

Elle: I'm in BOTH camp for I see that BOTH the 7th day law and the 8th day laws are Biblical.

(Notice you ONLY mentioned here, 7th day law and the 8th day laws)

kland: If you are going to talk about "the 7th day law and the 8th day laws", then why did you exclude from your statement, "1st day laws"? Isn't that unbalanced to do that?

Elle: No, it's not a 1st day law. If I were so keen to prove Sunday; I guess I could of give it a spin by calling it a 1st day law but then I would of been mis-representing God's word. We need to be careful not to do that because that is in essence being a false prophet.

Exactly where are you talking about in scripture? You said above, 1st day and 8th day. You included 1st day as Biblical. So 1st day is not "mis-representing God's word".

Elle: I named these the 8 days laws because it comprise both -- the 7 days law + the 1st day. So I called it the way the Bible defines it.

Notice, you said, "1st day".


Elle: Some of the laws, like the wave-sheaf and the 1st day of Tabernacle both fall on a 1st day of the 8 days cycle. The 1st day of Tabernacle is said to be kept as a "holy convocation",

So again, why did you exclude from your statement, "1st day laws"? Isn't that unbalanced to do that? Why did you pick-and-choose "8th day" over the other days mentioned? What guidelines do you use to pick one and avoid the other?

Are you trying to only confuse things kland? Mixing different quotes from different post that has different context does confuse things further.

In the case you are sincerely confused because you don't know about the details of these basic laws; I'll answer below each things you brought.


The above quote was when I answered dedication, who said I didn't provide any Biblical support, with an opening brief concise summary of all that I've said covering multiple scriptures in the previous posts. After that statement I did provided some more details, if I recall correctly, about the wave sheaf, Pentecost and the Feast of Trumpet; but I didn't repeat all that I've said in those long previous posts.


But when you look at all the 8th days laws and the Feasts you will find the following:

-there are some Feasts days like the 1st day of the 8 days of Tabernacle and the 1st day of unleavened bread that are both Holy convocation Sabbaths celebrated on the 1st day of a cycle.

-Then there's other Feasts that are Holy convocation Sabbaths that fall on the 8th day of the 8 days type cycle like Pentecost, Feast of Tabernacle and the Jubilee(that's an 8th day law and not a Feast but yet the 50th year which is the first year of the next Jubilee cycle is to be kept as a Sabbath year. The Jubilee has Pentecost as a model. Both are 7x7 + 1 = 50).

-Then we have the wave sheaf(resurrection of Christ) that fall on the 1st day of the Pentecost cycle that is NOT a Holy convocation Sabbath.

-Then we have the Feast of Trumpet that is also a resurrection day model from the wave-sheaf that falls on a 1st day of the 7th month that is declared as a Holy convocation Sabbath.

So we have all of these different entities in the law that are entertwine with each other -- some are on the 1st day of a cycle, others on the 8th day of a cycle, some are declared Holy convocation Sabbaths, and some are not. So that basic summary concise statement above is taking all of the above in that short statement.

Yes, so ???? Read the context of that statement. That statement is clear within the context. Here the 7th day law meaning the 7th day Sabbath law that is based on a 7 days cycle and 8th day laws meaning the FIVE 8th days laws that I've listed in the first post by which is based on a 8 days cycle (7 days cycle + 1 day).



Above I was referring to the 8th day laws that is not called a 1st day law in the Bible. Again I see nothing wrong with that statement taking the context.


I explained at the top of this post that some feast are celebrated as a Holy convocation Sabbath on the 1st day of a cycle, other on the 8th day of a cycle.

You should know these basic Biblical Feast knowledge and I shouldn't have to re-explains all of this certainly after making 3 super long posts that I had already explained the details of these. So I'm puzzled that you seem to still not understand.


Here I probably should of written "the 7 days cycle + 1 day". But in the context I had just referred to the 7 days law which was the 7 days weekly cycle and the next day is the 1st day.

I have a hard time to believe you couldn't understand this statement.

The 8 days laws are the circumcision(7days + 1), the dedication of priests(7days + 1), Pentecost(7x7weeks + 1), the 8 days of Tabernacle(7days + 1), and the Jubilee(7x7weeks of years + 1) which all have the 7 days weekly model + 1 day = 8 days.


??? The Feast of Tabernacle is not a 1st day law...it is a 8 days law because it is a 8 days long Feast where BOTH the 1st day and the 8th day are declared as a Holy Convocation Sabbath.

I couldn't see nothing wrong with that statement above either. The words were chosen carefully.

Actually the "circumcision" command, as observed by the Jews is seven full days plus 12 hours. In other words, if a baby was born on Monday at three a.m. then Monday was counted as the "first day" and Monday a week later at 3 p.m. the baby could be circumcised. If the baby boy was born at 3 p.m. Monday, then it could not be circumcised until Tuesday the following week.

Interesting that Elle considers God's concern for the well being of the infant, as "old covenant", even though science confirms God's wisdom for delaying the operation till the infant's blood reaches maximum coagulation properties. That reveals God's concern and wisdom, not some mystical interpretation that it takes God eight days to circumcise a believers heart! The heart needs circumcision on a daily bases as the Holy Spirit works to mold our characters to represent Christ.

There is absolutely nothing in there that makes the weekly Sunday a holy day. Never any mention in all of scripture.

Nor is there anything in the consecration of the priest service that makes the weekly Sunday a holy Day.

Seven days the new priests were to offer special sacrifices and engage in other "purifying" rituals. When those seven days were ended, they started their regular work as priests.

Penticost and the Jubilee are not "eight day laws" they are 50 day, or 50 year laws.

And even the feast of Tabernacles does not consecrate a weekly Sunday Sabbath, it simply says there were 2 feast Sabbaths during Tabernacles EACH YEAR, which may or may not have fallen on a Sunday or any other day of the week.

Feast Sabbaths are not part of the Decalogue, but the seventh day Sabbath is. Feast Sabbaths occur yearly, not weekly and do not sanction a weekly "8th day" or '1st day" Sabbath.


The whole attempt to tie any "eighth day" reference to a recurring weekly Sabbath/Sunday has it's roots in the apostasy of the Christian church centuries ago -- but it is still based solely on speculation. NONE of the things cited make the weekly Sunday a holy day.


I agree with Kland -- why zero in on references to the "8th day" as somehow evidence that there is a law making the weekly Sunday a day of worship?
Why not zero in on references to the "3rd day" or the "10th day" and make them the law for a new day of worship?

God says, "Remember the seventh day to keep it holy".

Ummm, Elle, it came from your one post right above it. What are you confused about?

Yes, long posts which had nothing to do with my question. Which you proceed to do in the current post.

Why avoid answering the question?

Remember the question? Why do you go on (and on) about your 8th day laws when 1st day is mentioned in your same supposed supporting text?

I think you are confused in thinking I'm asking you to explain why you believe there's 8th day laws. That is not the question.

Again, the question is: why did you exclude from your statement, "1st day laws"? Isn't that unbalanced to do that? Why did you pick-and-choose "8th day" over the other days mentioned? What guidelines do you use to pick one and avoid the other?

When your audience is questioning why you are picking and choosing, it does no good to continue to ignore the question and go on (and on) about supporting your picked-and-chosen.

Talk about confusing things. Do you realize that 8 days law would be different than 8th day law? Is that where you're mangling things? Elle, Something 8 days long is different than the 8th day of it.

Notice how when faced with scripture, they go silent? In more than one thread. Of course, that didn't convince them of any thing....

Yes, I did notice that.

I also noticed the way they demand that their questions be answered without bothering to answer the question under discussion, and how they cut-and-paste stuff they don't like to another thread and then give it a misleading name.

Oh damn. Broke my own rule again...

Do you mean by "they" everyone but not you or dedication?


Below is 3 Biblical points and 1 early Church application (way before Constantine came in the picture) all pointing to a SUNDAY observance.

The first 2(#1 & #2) I have already given these in past posts. The last 2 (#3 & #4) are new.

#1. The FIVE 8 days laws types from the law of Moses :


Christ's resurrection (fulfillment of Wave sheaf in Lev 23:10) and Pentecost -- BOTH fell on a SUNDAY. According to Lev 23:15-21 and Num 28:26 Pentecost is to be kept as a Holy convocation and a Sabbath day.

Lev 23:15 " ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: 16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD. 17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD. ... 21 And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations."

Num 28:26 "Also in the day of the firstfruits, when ye bring a new meat offering unto the LORD, after your weeks be out, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work:"

The Wave-Sheaf and Pentecost were BOTH fulfilled on a Sunday.
1. the Wave sheaf [of Barley] (Day 1 of the 7x7days +1 countdown) : which the ANTITYPE represented [the resurrection of] Jesus who was UNLEAVENED (without sin).

and 2. Pentecost (Day 50 of the 7x7days +1 countdown) : which was an offering of two BAKED loaves [of Wheat] baked with LEAVENED which the ANTITYPE represented the 120 disciples who were in the upper room who received [were baked by] the fire of the Holy Spirit. Note: The law forbade leavened to be in any offering. However, the Pentecost main offering was two leavened loaves that needed to be BAKED. The fire during the baking process kills the leavened action. The fire symbolize the Holy Spirit in stopping the progress of Leaven (sin) that is in our heart. So despite we are still with sin, the fire action of the Holy Spirit is what makes us an acceptable sacrifice to be presented to the Father.

These were BOTH FirstFruits offering which were BOTH presented to God :

1. Christ (the wave sheaf firstfruit) and

2. the 120 disciples (the two loaves of Baked leavened Bread).



#2. Heb 7:12 tells us that there's a "change" (transfer) on the keeping of the law from the Old covenant to the New Covenant. This change-transfer is to be applied in all the Sabbaths laws -- 1. the 7 days cycle law and 2. the Five 8 days cycle laws.

We saw this Heb 7:12 transfer of the law applied in the Passover, the Wave Sheaf, and the Pentecost fulfillment.

However, the Adventist Church still keeps the 7th day Sabbath law like it was in the old covenant. They haven't done any transfer required as God told us in Heb 7:12.

I'm not saying that this transfer of the 7days law is to be kept on Sunday. No! What I see that is kept on Sundays is the fulfillment of the 8days laws listed above. I'm still unsure if these 8days laws needs to be kept on every Sunday. But concerning the application of the 7days laws in the New Covenant still needs to be revealed.

Here's some study reference posts of Heb 7:12 :



Here's the two other points that I haven't given yet.


#3.Jesus appear a second time the following SUNDAY. Jesus appeared two consecutive Sundays. The first at His resurrection day, then the second time on the following Sunday.

John 20:26 "26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.”"

This 8 days is to be counted according to Jewish ways from the resurrection of Christ on the 1st day of the week--SUNDAY.

The 3rd time Jesus appeared to them was not in the upper room but at the sea of Galilee. The Bible doesn't tell us which day it was (John 21:13-14). Some Sunday keepers speculates it was also on a Sunday. They could be right or they could be wrong. We just don't know.

Steven Jones in his study of the 4th commandment (link here) says that Jesus set a pattern in appearing on SUNDAYS (on the first two Sunday and potentially on His 3rd appearance). So he speculates that He did so for 5 weeks in a row in appearing every Sunday before His ascension. So in this, that Jesus set up the new pattern of Sabbath keeping to Sunday.

Well I will agree that the first two appearance were on Sunday. I'm not convince that this was enough to set up a new pattern and then I see that Stephen uses the Pentecost law in Lev 23:10-15 (quoted above) not correctly.

He said that Lev 23:10-15 can be read (with the Heb 7:12 transfer in mind) to say that the 7 sabbaths cycles could to counted as 7 Sundays towards Pentecost. To me this line of thinking doesn't work because it would change the pattern of the 8 days law. His suggestion would mean that the counting starts with 8 days + 6x7days. This is the only way you can make the Sabbath counting on a Sunday instead of Sathurday. That's not the pattern set by all the FIVE 8 days laws. All these laws starts with a 7days pattern cycle whether it be 7days, or 7x7days, or 7x7years that represents the prophetic time cycle at 3 levels for the sanctification process. Then all these TYPES--patterns finish with a 1 day (or 1 year) which represents a presentation of the sanctified son (or priesthood).

So I cannot come to agree with this as his ways of counting would break up the set pattern of the 8 days laws. The way I understand Heb 7:12 change (tranfer) of any law shouldn't break the original pattern. The change-transfer is at the level of application of what the ANTI-TYPES (the fulfillment at the spiritual level) becomes and should not change the TYPE (set pattern).

However Steven brings many other valid points in his 4th commandments study that I do agree with; but these relates to the 7 days Sabbath cycle that should be discussed in another discussion.


#4. The early church writings after Jesus' death the believers were keeping Sunday as their Sabbath day and NOT Saturday.

In these early writings, they don't say why the change was done but only mention it as it was well understood among the early Church believers. Do note that these early writings dates way BEFORE Constantine time.



So the early Church understood something that they stopped meeting on Saturday and started to keep Sunday instead. The fact that the early writings doesn't explain and the reason has been kept silenced by God's Sovereignty, tells me that they might not necessarily understood it properly and it is yet to be reveal to the generation of the Messianic Age (the Millennium we're about to enter). So to me the Lord is giving us a wide open pondering & studying invitation.

Elle, let me point out why these points you made are only half-truths. They do not originate with you --they have been used to defend the unscriptural Sunday for many generations.

POINT #1 Eight day laws.
They do not sanctify a weekly "8th" day. There is no such thing as an eight day week. At creation God established a seven day week, and many things in scripture unfold in a weekly pattern. Just like our camp meetings. They last eight days. Two Sabbaths and the whole week in between.

Christ rested from His work of creating humans, on the seventh day. Christ rested from His work of redeeming humans, on the seventh day. Yes, the first day is the beginning of a new week, and yes, Christ rose on the first day, yet that does not make the first day into some kind of "8th day" of the week. The week is still just seven days. Scripture does not place any special sanctity on the weekly first day "or imaginary 8th day" of the week.

Revelation is full of "seven" --
The first half depicts the things of God in "sevens".
Seven stars or angels, seven churches, seven eyes, seven horns on the lamb, seven spirits, seven candlesticks, seven lamps, etc.
Second half of Revelation shows the counterfeit powers trying to duplicate the "sevens" with their "seven heads" which are full of blasphemy. What is interesting is that in Revelation 17 an "eighth" appears, and clearly this eighth is NOT good, but the culmination of the evil of the counterfeits and goes into perdition.

POINT #2. Heb 7:12 tells us that there's a "change" (transfer) on the keeping of the law.

Yes, there was a change, but PLEASE go back and read what that change was! What does it say?
Christ is now our high priest.
Because there is a change in the priesthood, it necessitates a change of law. Why?
The law does not allow someone from the tribe of Judah to attend to the altar.
But Christ is after the pattern of Melchisedec, made a priest not according to the carnal law, but based on His endless life.

Yes, Hebrews is all about the change from the symbolic temple services, to the reality of Christ -- the better sacrifice, the better blood, the better priesthood. But it does NOT do away with God's moral law. The ten commandments written by God's own finger are not a "shadow" or ceremonial commands.
Hebrews 4 tells us that Sabbath observance (sabbatismos) remains. (sabbatismos) means Sabbath observance, which is part of the resting in Christ, or (katapausis)of believing in Christ.
It points to Christ's rest after His perfect work of Creation, and also to His rest following the perfect work of His human life, which is the basis for the confidence we can have. This reminds us, of Christ's cry, "It is finished" (John 19:30) when the work He had come to earth to do, was done, and He rested on the seventh day.

Yes, on the first day, He rose and began the work of applying salvation, but on the seventh day, He rested.
Later, Luke, the Gentile would write of Christ's followers, that they too, rested on the Sabbath, according to the Commandment.
God's moral law did not change. The seventh day is embedded in the heart of the moral law. The ceremonial laws have changed, but they are not part of the Decalogue.


POINT #3. Jesus appeared two consecutive Sundays. The first at His resurrection day, then the second time on the following Sunday.

John 20:26 "26 After eight days His disciples.

We already discussed that point as well. As we discussed earlier, Christ's first appearance to the disciples, when Thomas was absent, was already SUNDAY EVENING, well after supper time. (And an inspired writer that is far more reliable than Stephen Jones, confirms this)

Yes, they had not yet gone to bed, so in a sense John wanted the continuity that it was still in the same 24 hours as the resurrection -- but none the less, it was Sunday EVENING after sundown-- by Jewish reckoning it was already Monday.

Eight days later would NOT be a Sunday.
You seem to hold that the eighth day after Sabbath is Sunday.
Then even if it still was before sundown Sunday when Jesus first appeared, then the eighth day for His second appearance would still be a Monday. Though I think it was probably a Tuesday.

And the idea that Jesus appeared to them every Sunday after His resurrection is NOTHING BUT SPECULATION. I see you also question that idea and don't agree with Jones.


POINT #4
The early church writings

You quote Stephen Jones.
However, the "evidence" he gives is HIGHLY slanted.
Some of it is outright wrong. Many have probably never bothered to read these quotations in the original sources.

Now it's true that SOME Christians started celebrating Sunday fairly early on. It wasn't a "replacement" at first, but rather an "addition" to Sabbath observance. .

I'll just deal with the very first of Jones' quotes.



We can't automatically assume that the phrase "Lord's day" meant then what it means now, or even what it would mean in the following centuries. I don't believe John meant Sunday when he said he was in the spirit on the Lord's day, either.

We only know that the title was transferred to Sunday a couple hundred years later, yet even then the Christians were still keeping Saturday as their Sabbath!

The writings do NOT show Christians replacing Sabbath observance for Sunday after the resurrection, rather that replacement was a gradual thing that came about over hundreds of years.

I don't have time to show all the evidence now -- but will give a start.



There is a lot of evidence that the early Christians kept Saturday as their Sabbath for several centuries after Christ's resurrection. Yes, they also celebrated Sunday, rejoicing in Christ's resurrection, but even that at first was in contention as to whether it was to be on Sunday or according to the Passover calendar. Victor I bishop of Rome (189-199) demanded the churches celebrate on Sunday.

As to the epistle of Barnabas--
the Epistle of Barnabas was a pseudo epistle, written long after the Biblical Barnabas was dead. Many think it was written around 140 AD. The author was basically a Gnostic Christian, pushing gnostic ideas onto the church.
That epistle, according to the historian, Schaff, “actually seems to deny the literal historical sense” of the Old Testament, asserting, for example, that God never willed the sacrifice and fasting, or the Sabbath observance and temple worship of the Jews”.

Basically, according to pseudo-Barnabas, we are too wicked at present to keep the Sabbath, and will not be able to keep it until we are sanctified when Christ returns. Because we are too wicked to keep the Sabbath now, we must keep Sunday???

The epistle of Barnabas was NOT recognized as an authentic gospel by the early church.

I do appreciate that you are detailed in laying out your reasoning and arguments.


dedication all your arguments above are very childish and has no bearing against that God has established FIVE 8days LAWS. What are you trying to do?... Do away what God has instituted as laws? Say they don't exist? These laws exist and all points to the sanctification process of man to become Sons of God. Once the 7day cycle course(=sanctification) is over then the sanctified son is presented to God. Sonship is the ultimate goal of the plan of salvation. This is what these Five 8days laws represents and points forward.

Your arguments that these 8th day laws doesn't fall on a literal Sunday all the time, that there's no 8 days in a week, that there's lots of sevens in the Bible, imaginary 8th day, and etc... are lame arguments nor does it negates or touch in the importance of these FIVE 8days Laws that are found in the Laws of Moses. Two has been fulfilled in Christ and in the Church during the spring feast & Pentecost, and the others are still to be fulfilled during Tabernacle at Jesus 2nd coming, after the Millennium and at the end of the Great Jubilee.

You are so blinded from elevating and defending the literal 7th day Sabbath that you say anything possible and cannot see that in each of these FIVE 8days laws the 7days law is inside of it and is key to symbolize its purpose in sanctifying man.

Also by your arguments, you show yourself having no concept of what a TYPE or Pattern is. These FIVE 8days laws and the 7days law are both prophetic TYPES--shadows--patterns of things to come. By combining them God further illustrate and reveal the dept of the spiritual application and meanings of these laws.


You contradict yourself. First you say that Heb 7:12 necessitates a change in the law to validate a different bloodline as if that the Priesthood was the only "necessary" portion that is changed[transferred] in the law. Then you say there were also a change in the sacrificial service law (by which there were many) and the sacrifice. The book of Hebrew also talk of a better temple, a better covenant, and etc... Paul wrote extensively on the change in the law of circumcision as that was a big issue in those days with the Judaisers. The Priesthood touched everything in the law from the tithes, firstfruits offerings, judicial matters, medical matters, economic matters, etc... because they were the mediator of the convenant between the people and God. What part of the Mosaic law that the Levitical house didn't have any involvement in some way? Very few.

Also something to point out, the order of Melchizedek was already in the law-Torah before the Leviticus order was established. So was it really changed or just reverting to its original intend? Even Solomon completely changed the Phinehas line to the Zadok line foreshadowing what was to come in Christ. The Phinehas line was said to be establish "forever". Actually the Hebrew word olam for "forever" doesn't necessarily means forever but more accurately means for an unknown time.

Heb 7:12 says "For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also." Not only the priesthood bloodline is changed[transfer] but the whole law also was changed because the Levitical priesthood was the mediator of the law the old covenant. However under the New covenant under the Melchizedek order...the old covenant way of keeping the law was done away at Christ death; His resurrection invoked the new covenant and this required a change[transfer] of the whole law from the old to the NEW covenant. It was not only the order of the Priesthood that was changed.

Actually Paul wrote the book of Hebrew to help the Jews & Judaizers understand the transition of the law between the Old covenant to the new covenant.


#1. Heb 4 is not talking about "the rest" of the 7th day Sabbath. It's talking about "the rest" of entering the promise land at the Jubilee Sabbath rest that occur at the 50th year (7x7 years + 1). This is made clear what Paul is exactly referring about just the paragraph before Heb 4:1

Heb 3:16 "For who were the ones who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was God angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would never enter His rest? Was it not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that it was because of their unbelief that they were unable to enter.…

This is when the Israelites refused to believe the good report of Caleb & Joshua when God instructed them to enter the promise land. They sent 12 spies and 10 of them gave a bad report. So everyone believe the 10 bad report instead. That angered God and He swore none of them would enter the promise land and they stayed in the wilderness for 40 years until they all died. Caleb and Joshua are the only one that entered the "rest" (promised land).


#2. The Greek word Katapausis for rest (meaning reposing down) is used 7 times in Heb 4 and 2 times in Heb 3; whereas Sabbatismos only once in Heb 4:9. Even if Sabbatismos would of been used more than once ...the Jubilee Sabbath year is the greatest of all the Sabbath rest which points to our ultimate final destination of this great plan of salvation when all debts are cancelled and all can find the ultimate rest [from slavery incurred by poverty or by sin] by returning to our inheritance.

There's 3 levels of rest in the law:

1. weekly 7th day Sabbath rest for man and beast that represents the Passover level of spiritual growth. This is also the elemental Type-pattern for all other Sabbaths is based upon.

2. The 7th year Sabbath rest for the land to release those in slavery for a full year every 7th year. This spiritually represents the Pentecost level of spiritual growth where we start to hear-learn the law from the Holy Spirit and gradually releases us from the sin slavery.

3. The 50th year Jubilee Sabbath rest is when we reach full debt cancellation. At that level we basically reach the Tabernacle level of spiritual growth and reached the full likeness of Christ and become full sons. This has not occur yet in its fullness. This is the greatest rest of all as we have fully ceased from all our own work and from saying our own words like Christ.

So at the first level we start by having a weekly physical rest and study His word. At the second level we start to experiment desisting from our own works and words as we learn to hear His voice more and more. This level can only be reached by hearing His voice. But the full Sabbath rest of ceasing from all of our own works is defined in Is 58:13 as "desisting from your own ways, from seeking your own pleasure, and speaking your own word,". Christ said at many places that He only spoke the words He heard from His Father and did what He sees Him doing. He did this not only on the literal 7th day Sabbath; but on everyday continually. This is the Tabernacle level of rest that God is working in us to bring us to.


Yes, we discussed John 20:19 where you lied or more nicely said mis-represent scriptures 3 times by saying scripture said this when it didn't... when you tried to prove that Jesus appeared to the disciples after Sundown Sunday. You didn't prove anything with those mis-representation of scriptures or your say. Here's the discussion so to refresh your memory.




If you read the commentaries of John 20:26, the eight days has to be counted from Sunday inclusively like the Jews ways of counting. From Sunday to Sunday is 8 days.

Well the first two Sundays is said in the Bible and then the 7th Sunday is Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came down. To say that Jesus appeared during the remaining Sundays (the 3rd, 4th, and 5th) before He ascended to Heaven -- is speculative like I have said. There's no scriptures that validates that.


Stephen Jones is way less slanted than you dedication. He can be at times and we all do because we all have our own heart idols that is hidden from us and do not understand all truths. However I am as critical if not more when reading Stephen's stuff and do check if he misrepresents scriptures. Over the years I found he is very rarely slanted as he deligently repeats what scriptures actually says. Whenever he speculates, he calls it as such. There's room for some speculations as scriptures doesn't give all the details. But if you keep the integrity of what scriptures says while bringing all other scriptures dealing with the subject; then the speculative section being called speculation needs to be confirmed by the Lord somehow in your life experience. For sure his spiritual outlook of scriptures is something someone not accustom to look at scriptures in the new covenant way seems way out there. But scriptures does tells us the spiritual equivalence of what is written. It's just we SDAs(and other denominations) are not accustom to it. We are accustom to read scriptures literally and with our carnal mind that reading someone that speaks from his spiritual mind is uncomprehensible to us like 1Co 2:14 says "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

When you present scriptures dedication, there's so much correction to be brought by just pointing out what the scriptures actually says. I had to do this over and over again with you over the years and you still are very slanterous with scriptures when you post. As I said it's not entirely your fault as the Church as a whole is very notorious in doing that. You often just repeat the Church interpretation without really looking at scriptures carefully yourself.

Back to the subject...You can't prove (nor can I) what John actually meant in Rev 1. He could of meant Sunday as many were already observing Sunday from the early Church. There's many early writings among the early believers that shows that the "Lord's day" referred to Sunday and not Saturday. So it was already a common saying early on after the Pentecost experience.


Look at the above underlined and bolded text that prove that in those days "the Lord's day" referred to Sunday.


You mean the Judaizers who stayed in the old covenant ways that Paul constantly rebuked in his writtings that they needed to transit from the Old covenant to the new. Of course, the Judaizers kept on observing the 7th day Sabbath. This doesn't prove they were right. It only shows that they couldn't do the transition. The followers of Christ that the quotes came from observed Sunday -- they did the transition.

We don't know what revelation the early Church received (besides the writings of Paul on other subjects of the law) to validate that as it was not included in their writings. But the keeping of the Sunday was what they did and seemed everyone understood why and needed no explanation. Since this information was not shared as I said in my other post, I see it that it was God sovereignty behind it and His invitation for our generation to discover it.


Just because Barnabas writings did not make the Bible (as many other early Church members) it doesn't mean his writing is invalid historical account of what the early Church members believed. Any writing from the early believers in the early first 200 years is an historical account.


The Judaizers was still around (even today) and RCC did what was necessary to bring peace in the land. That's what that text prove to me.