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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#188451
02/09/19 02:07 AM
02/09/19 02:07 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 511
Michigan, US
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Do we have to become perfect in order to enter the kingdom of God? I believe that God knows a possibility of perfection in us.
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”(Matt. 22:37-40)
Even if we be faithful, we still would come short of perfection. There is no one who have reached to perfect state in a knowledge and faith together: greater knowledge but poor in faith; or in opposite, greater faith but poor in knowledge. When would we reach to a fullness of Christ?
Scripture tells us it would be in future. "till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (Eph. 4:13).
"who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself" (Phil. 3:21).
If it will be in future, when? I believe it will happen during the thousand years when we are learning the mystery of creation and salvation of God: we would be changed through God's love and power where there is no sin. In the beginning, God instituted Sabbath to commemorate creation. If sin has not intruded, the Sabbath would have perpetuated. When sin entered, there exist six years of slavery and one year sabbath; six feast sabbaths and feast of tabernacle; six thousand years of the four thousand years plus two thousand years which points to a thousand years of sabbath in the kingdom of God.
Jesus will make us grow to His fullness during the thousand years in the kingdom of God; then all of us would be perfect in faith and knowledge.
"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years (Rev. 20:4, 6)."
Jesus will teach us during the thousand years how to reign our inherited kingdom as the above verses indicated. After we grow in the fullness of Christ, then we would be ready to rule our own nation "forever and ever"(Rev. 22:5). In the kingdom of God, we would bring our own nation's "glory and honor" into the New Jerusalem every Sabbath(Rev. 21:24).
Satan deceived Adam and Eve that if they eat the forbidden fruit, they would become like gods. His lie will become reality when we sit on the throne of God as Jesus promised in Rev. 3:21.
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory." 1Tim. 3:16
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#188507
02/15/19 06:45 PM
02/15/19 06:45 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2023
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Rev. 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."
Rev. 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
How long the sound of the seventh trumpet has to go out before the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms or our Lord? Since it mentions of "in the days of the voice," is that mean it will take more than few years prophetically? Didn't SDA voiced the seventh trumpet since 1844?
Is the seventh trumpet announcing the warning to the wicked that they should repent before the close of probation? It sure sounds like intended message of the trumpet that the kingdom of God is coming. But how long do we have to blow the message to finish the commission? Perhaps we are not blowing the other six messages to make it perfect?
"For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? (1 Cor. 14:8)
If the seventh trumpet is an announcement, are we not also suppose to consider the other trumpets as announcement instead of assuming them to be historical events?
When the three woes announced, its message is about the "voices of the trumpet," which indicated as announcement as well as the other of the first four trumpets' voice. In other words, the seven trumpets' message should not be interpreted as historical sequential events.
"And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound! (Rev. 8:13)."
Who are commissioned to announce the seventh trumpet? Of course, just as the three angels message is proclaimed by God's people, we are to tell the world that "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
The sixth trumpet is also intended for God's people to announce to "the inhabiters of the earth"(8:13) so that people can be sealed for salvation before the close of probation arrives.
When the sixth trumpet is sounded, there was a voice from the four horns of the golden altar: "And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God(Rev. 9:13). This imagery is clear that the voice of God came out of the heavenly sanctuary in response to the intercessory ministry of Jesus as the introduction of the seven trumpets portrays(Rev.8:3-5).
What did God say? "Loose the four angels"! The article "the" refers to the four angels who were holding the four winds in Rev. 7:1-3. So the angels obey God's command instantly because the sealing has completed and the close the probation has arrived.
"And the four angels were loosed" , which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men"(v.15). This passage indicates a point in time that they let go of the holding. Those angels who wait on the Lord would not have taken 391 days—391 years prophetically— to obey His command.
The river of Euphrates represent borderline of the end-time. (See Gen. 15:18).
John said "I heard the number of them" which are the "two hundred thousand thousand" horsemen. Again, we find these horsemen in Rev. 19:14 who followed the white horse rider—Jesus Christ. Then the evil will destroy evil as 9:17-19 portrayed.
The correlation of the sixth trumpet to the heavenly sanctuary ministration of Jesus is undeniable evidence that it is announcement rather than Ottoman Turks or "medieval and post-Reformation periods" (See Sabbath School Quarterly p.54).
The fifth trumpet also correlates with the heavenly sanctuary where the sealing of God's people is determined: "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" (Rev. 9:4).
Essentially, all the seven trumpets warn about the close of probation because Rev. 8:13 says that " Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!" It means all of the announcements are the woes!
1 Cor. 14:8 " For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?"
Is God's church ready to make a war with the beast who "stood upon the sand of the sea"(Rev. 13:1): "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ(Rev. 12:17)?
The beast is like Goliath who already came out to fight, but where is David—the remnant people of God?
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#188571
02/23/19 05:09 PM
02/23/19 05:09 PM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Posts: 1,195
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Is God's church ready to make a war with the beast who "stood upon the sand of the sea"(Rev. 13:1): "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ(Rev. 12:17)?
The beast is like Goliath who already came out to fight, but where is David—the remnant people of God?
The three woes, or the last three trumpets, were called " woes" because they represented judgments against humanity directly, as opposed to the tangential environmental misfortunes of the first 4 trumpets (on vegetation, springs, seas and heavens). - FIRST WOE: Five months of torment for those without seal
- SECOND WOE: Massacre of a third of humanity
- THIRD WOE: The wrath of God Himself against those who destroy the earth
What is the church's role in all of this? Nothing really, except to preach the good news of salvation in season, and out. If God chooses to raise up a prophet like Moses or Elijah . . . that is His prerogative. In the midst of the chaos, and the swirling darkness, however, we are still the light in the world to which others may come to find understanding and hope. " Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near." (Rev. 1:3) Notice how it places the reader not in the role of strident activist but like that of a chicken that hides under the wing of its mother until the storm passes and the new day dawns. Mat. 23:37 ///
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#188578
02/25/19 01:15 AM
02/25/19 01:15 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2023
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Posts: 511
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God's church is represented as woman. Jer. 6:2 "I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman." Isa. 51:16"...say unto Zion, Thou art my people" God's church is likened to "Who is she that looketh forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners?"(Song of Solomon 6:10).
Rev. 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."
God's church fights under the banner of Christ. The opponent, great red dragon, is frantic and wild to destroy the remnant church of God. However, the church(the mighty angel) will "took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all" (Rev. 18:21).
The woman has a crown of twelve stars on her head. The great read dragon has seven heads with seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev. 12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars."
Rev. 12:3 "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."
The dragon's intention is to use his brain powers to overcome the woman throughout the seven church periods: that's why he has the seven heads with crowns on his heads. He employs the beast who has received dragon's power, seat, and authority(religious, political, and economic power).
The beast's feature is very similar as the dragon, in that he also has the seven heads and ten horns. But the beast has crowns on the ten horns, not on the seven heads. The dragon has his plan to implement against the seven churches, so the beast appears as crown-less seven heads. However, notice that the beast has crowns on the ten horns.
Seven heads and ten horns always appear together in Revelation: Rev. 12:3 "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads." Rev. 13:1 "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy." Rev. 17:3 "So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns." Rev. 17:7 "And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns."
The beast's intention is to conquer by the power of the ten horns, which are the ten kings: "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast" (Rev. 17:12). So the beast has the crowns on the ten horns.
Although all the world wonders after the beast, God's church is strong and will finish the final cosmic war triumphantly. "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect" (Heb. 11:40). God's church has "a stone" that will cast the beast power into the deep sea just as David threw a stone to struck Goliath down. She will not let the beast take her crown away: "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown(Rev. 3:11).
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#188679
03/11/19 12:51 AM
03/11/19 12:51 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 511
Michigan, US
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When the martyrs cry out under the altar for "avenge our blood," God said to them wait until "their fellowservants also and their brethren" should be killed. Rev. 6:9-11 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." We find that the martyrs prayers being answered in Rev.18: 7-8, 20. "How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her." The martyrs are resulted from the papacy over the period of Dark Ages. The Papacy killed God's saints with the beasts of the earth: "And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth"(Rev. 6:7-8). The martyrs were killed with sword, with hunger, with death, and with the beasts of the earth. The Papacy says "I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow." But the time has come for her to suffer "death, and mourning, and famine": sword=mourning, hunger=famine, death=death. The martyrs' cry for "avenge our blood" has fulfilled in Rev. 18:20: "for God hath avenged you on her." During the fourth seal period, the Papacy killed the saints with hungry lions in the Coliseum. We discover that the fifth plague is poured out upon the seat of the beast. Can we see why the Papacy has to receive the fifth plague? It's not so difficult to connect some dots of evidences together. The fifth trumpet indicates that "a star fall from heaven" is the Papacy, which endeavors to hinder the earth dwellers to receive the seal of God on their foreheads. Rev. 9:4 says, " And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads." The martyrs cry will not be silent until the fifth plague fulfill its wrath upon the seat of the Papacy. The fifth plague causes them to suffer as "gnawed their tongues for pain" while the avenging for the saints' blood would be completed. The fifth trumpet is sounding the warning for their torments: "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them" (Rev. 9:6). But the beast and his kingdom would not repent:"And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds" (Rev. 16:11).
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#188707
03/13/19 05:36 PM
03/13/19 05:36 PM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
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When the martyrs cry out under the altar for "avenge our blood," God said to them wait until "their fellow servants also and their brethren" should be killed. - When Jesus Christ takes the scroll from God's hands, the scroll is sealed. One by one, He opens the seven seals until the last when the scroll becomes completely open. In Rev. 10, He descends from heaven in spirit and gives John that very open scroll.
"I saw still another mighty angel coming down from heaven, clothed with a cloud. And a rainbow was on his head, his face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire. He had a little book open in his hand." v. 1-2. John "took the little book out of the angel’s hand and ate it, and it was as sweet as honey in my mouth. But when I had eaten it, my stomach became bitter. And the angel said to me, 'You must prophesy AGAIN about many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings.'" v. 10-11. - Those words of Jesus mirrors what John saw about the martyrs.
On the one hand, them crying out FROM UNDER THE ALTAR was indicative of them being the brethren and fellow servants of the 144,000 of Israel sealed with the unbreakable seal of God1.
But then John "looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!'" Rev. 7:9-10.
And so the two groups of people were: 1. of Israel (the martyrs + 144,000) which John knew about; and 2. of the Gentiles, i.e. the great multitude which he did not know about. Rev. 7:13-14. - Now it becomes clear why when John ate the open book it was sweet in his mouth but bitter in his stomach: whereas the gospel, the good news of salvation, was going to be extended to the Gentiles, the end of all things was about to befall the Jews. It was the sweet and the bitter, the blessing and the curse, the revelation of the contents of the scroll.
CUE THE SOUND OF THE SEVENTH AND LAST TRUMPET _______________________ 1 It is written about the strength of such a seal, " Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, 'Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?' And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it." Rev. 5:2-3 ///
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: James Peterson]
#189186
04/24/19 01:05 AM
04/24/19 01:05 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 511
Michigan, US
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When Jesus Christ takes the scroll from God's hands, the scroll is sealed. One by one, He opens the seven seals until the last when the scroll becomes completely open. In Rev. 10, He descends from heaven in spirit and gives John that very open scroll. The sealed book with the seven seals(Rev 5:1), which Jesus is found worthy to loose, has not been completely opened yet. If so, logically, the redemption of mankind must have arrived at the time of its completion. We see that the Sabbath is depicted in Rev 10: 6: "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer." The angel who came down with the open book(Rev 10:1-2) cannot be the sealed book Rev 5:1, because the book must be related to prophecy. It is the book of Daniel in the OT in the context of chapter 10 that the angel is referring to. This is where we find the prophecy that related to the subject of the Second Coming of Jesus, the Seven Thunders of His coming. Keep in mind that when Jesus unsealed the seventh seal, there was an awful silence for half hour (Rev 8:1), because the heavenly angels are struck with a thought, perhaps, of "what would happen now." It is like a calm before the storm. There would be no more Intercessor in the heavenly temple and the full measure of the Seven Plagues would poured out when the Seventh seal is broken. When the seventh seal is broken, the seven trumpet's of message unfolded in the flow of Revelation. The unfolding of the "voices of the trumpet" (Rev 8:13) is prophetic. It is sounding aloud in the midst of heaven that no one can miss hearing it. This portion of the warning(Seven Trumpets) includes the tenth chapter of Revelation. That's why I believe that the little open-book has to be a prophetic book. The mighty angel said, "you must prophesy again" (v. 11). After the bitter-sweet experience of the Great Disappointment in 1844, SDA has been prophesying about the truth of the Sabbath, and its importance. God gave us "the Spirit of Prophecy" through Ellen G White to prophesy for the seal of God for more than 150 years and plus. Let us keep sound the Seven Trumpets of Revelation louder and louder. Jesus is coming soon!
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#189220
04/29/19 01:16 AM
04/29/19 01:16 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 511
Michigan, US
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When martyrs cry under the altar, it was said to them that "they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" (Rev. 6:11).
Notice that their cries are not going to be answered until their fellowservants fulfill the numbers that God has in mind.
When does God says that "Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her" (Rev. 18:20) to answer the martyrs' prayers? It is when the great city Babylon collapses!
Let us sound the Seven Trumpets of warning: "a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird" (Rev. 18:3).
"Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her" (Rev. 18:8).
If we(God's church) don't sound the Seven Trumpets, the great city Babylon won't be collapsed, and Jesus' second coming will be delayed until we are "choked" further more by the beast power.
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#189285
05/06/19 11:01 PM
05/06/19 11:01 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2023
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 511
Michigan, US
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In the fifth seal, the reason of the fifth plague is made known. The bowl of the fifth plague poured out upon the seat of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened (Rev. 16:10-11). Here, the beast represent Catholic. Revelation says they deserve the wrath of God.
During the Dark Ages, many martyrs were produced by Catholic church. They cry, "how long, avenge our blood," but God's answer is, "avenged you on her" (Rev. 18:20) only at the end of spiritual Babylon collapse— after the fellowservants fill the number of martyrs.
The fifth seal indicates martyrs continue to produce by their system behind the scene even nowadays. Revelation does not indicate that the martyrs produced by SDA, but from Catholic who "come out" from the spiritual Babylonian system (Rev. 18:4).
The fifth church, Sardis, represents Reformation period, which came out from the supremacy of Catholic church. They are addressed as a dead church (Rev. 3:1), for Catholic is dead church because they have no light of truth in them.
The fifth trumpet is connected with the fifth plague, fifth seal, and fifth church. The fallen star in the fifth trumpet is Catholic. It is the beast ascended from the bottomless pit (Rev. 11:7, 17:8). The beast ascended from the bottomless pit is the angel of the bottomless pit(Rev. 9:11). It is a destroyer(Rev. 9:11): Catholic system is the destroyer.
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#189361
05/12/19 10:32 AM
05/12/19 10:32 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2023
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Rev. 19:2 "For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.”
Rev. 18:20 “Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!”
God is so patient and long-suffering; Gen. 15:16 "But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
Historical application for the seven trumpets does not fit the character of God, neither the sanctuary teachings. Revelation testifies that He will avenge the wicked at the time of the end when the spiritual Babylon collapses. When the probation of God finishes, the seven last plagues would fall to those wicked who do not repent. God did not punished the wicked who persecuted and killed saints, and opposed His church throughout the church history yet. The punishment is serious thing on the Day of His retribution for the wicked.
Rev. 18:5-6 "For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her."
The seven trumpet message is the warning of the Day of God's retribution, which happens at the close of the probation when Jesus declares "It is done" from the heavenly sanctuary. We hear the announcement of those warnings in the seven trumpet: "And I looked, and I heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, “Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!” It did not say, 'because the trumpet's event occurring,' but for the sounding of it(announcement). It is the announcement of woes! The close of probation is about to happen!
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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