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This thread is not about the 144,000, but, IM(NS)HO, any comments from anybody regarding the 144,000 is simply pure speculation.
The point is that there has not been, and never will be a "perfect" generation at any time. Jesus did not include "perfection" in his signs of the end in Matt.24, Mark 13, or Luke 21. No biblical writer includes character perfection as any condition for the return of Christ.
"Perfection" is a distraction to take our focus off of Jesus, all the while thinking we are somehow doing good. We start fixating on what we are doing, rather than what Christ has done for us.
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: A Proposed Change to Our 28 Fundamental Beliefs
[Re: Charity]
#187503 09/20/1802:19 PM09/20/1802:19 PM
John the Beloved tells us those who do cannot sin.
Cannot or will not? There is a difference, right?
1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
That's good news isn't it! In every temptation we have a choice - to abide or not to abide. If we abide we cannot sin because "his seed remaineth in him."
Re: A Proposed Change to Our 28 Fundamental Beliefs
[Re: Charity]
#187511 09/22/1812:10 AM09/22/1812:10 AM
John the Beloved tells us those who do cannot sin.
He also says: "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One." 1 John 2:1
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: A Proposed Change to Our 28 Fundamental Beliefs
[Re: JAK]
#187513 09/22/1809:36 AM09/22/1809:36 AM
John the Beloved tells us those who do cannot sin.
He also says: "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One." 1 John 2:1
True. While sinning is not inevitable but is always our choice to repudiate and repel the Spirit of Christ, the Lord still intercedes to give repentance to us and to restore the severed relationship.
Quote:
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But . . .
Re: A Proposed Change to Our 28 Fundamental Beliefs
[Re: Charity]
#187514 09/22/1802:38 PM09/22/1802:38 PM
I disagree. Sinning IS inevitable. 2 Chronicles 6:36 "When they sin against You--for there is no one who does not sin--" James 3:2 "We all stumble in many ways."
Originally Posted By: Charity
...but is always our choice...
I disagree, and so does Paul: Romans 7:15-18 "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out."
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: A Proposed Change to Our 28 Fundamental Beliefs
[Re: Charity]
#187521 09/24/1808:04 PM09/24/1808:04 PM
John the Beloved tells us those who do cannot sin.
Cannot or will not? There is a difference, right?
1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
That's good news isn't it! In every temptation we have a choice - to abide or not to abide. If we abide we cannot sin because "his seed remaineth in him."
We must be careful that we don't advocate 'holy flesh'. Maybe we need to understand what John is saying. How about another version? 1Jo 3:9 (NKJV) Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. Sounds a little different, doesn't it? And yes, it does have "cannot" but comes across differently.
1Jo 3:9 (ASV) Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God. 1Jo 3:9 (BBE) Anyone who is a child of God does no sin, because he still has God's seed in him; he is not able to be a sinner, because God is his Father. 1Jo 3:9 (DBY) Whoever has been begotten of God does not practise sin, because his seed abides in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God. 1Jo 3:9 (MKJV) Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 1Jo 3:9 (MNT) Whoever is a child of God cannot go on sinning, because his seed is abiding in him; and he cannot go on sinning because he is a child of God. 1Jo 3:9 (RSV) No one born of God commits sin; for God's nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God. 1Jo 3:9 (TCNT) No one who has received the new Life from God lives sinfully, because the very nature of God dwells within him; and he cannot live in sin, because he has received the new Life from God. 1Jo 3:9 (WEB) Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. 1Jo 3:9 (WNT) No one who is a child of God is habitually guilty of sin. A God-given germ of life remains in him, and he cannot habitually sin--because he is a child of God. 1Jo 3:9 (YLT) every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten.
So now, look at King James 1Jo 3:9 (KJV) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Really, it says the same as the others. If you are born of God, you do not sin. Not because you cannot, but because you will not. You just don't sin.
If it's cannot, then it becomes, you can't go against me because I'm born again and I don't sin, so give me your stuff or I blow your head off. Or varying degrees of less drama.
So yes, as you say, we have a choice, but be careful with the wording.
Re: A Proposed Change to Our 28 Fundamental Beliefs
[Re: kland]
#187525 09/24/1810:18 PM09/24/1810:18 PM
[i]1Jo 3:9 (NKJV) Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
If you are born of God, you do not sin. Not because you cannot, but because you will not. You just don't sin.
Indeed, that is what John meant.
To be born again, is to understand and appreciate, in a meaningful way, the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ for our salvation. Our response then is to begin to walk in his footsteps: to love as he loved us. In this way, one becomes a child of God, looks on the world in love, compassion and earnest desire to save.
And so one CANNOT sin because one WILL NOT sin GIVEN that one has this love that surpasses all understanding. Love is the fulfillment of the law; the righteousness of Christ in us, the outward manifestation of the new creation that we are.
However, it is in the shadows outside the borders of love that sin lurks and is ready to take advantage of those who drift away from the Centre, to gobble them up and spit them out so that they appear like a ship being wildly tossed to and fro in the storms of temptation. And the Devil looks on and laughs and laughs. The drunk: they're cartoony, aren't they?
///
Re: A Proposed Change to Our 28 Fundamental Beliefs
[Re: James Peterson]
#187554 09/29/1805:31 PM09/29/1805:31 PM
I don't agree with James or Kland point of view; but I do agree with Charity and JAK despite they are opposite. They both speak of some truth but both don't have the complete view.
So my view that I think encapsulate all scriptures is that in God's plan of salvation the Lord saw wisdom in using the Adamic man to be the womb of the New Creature conceived in our spirit by the Holy Seed from our heavenly Father. This conception follows the pattern of Jesus conception. Jesus' Father was from the Holy Seed; yet Mary background was from the Adamic man.
So basically we all have two "I" in us. We see this in Rom 7.
So yes, like JAK correctly quoted biblical texts, the Adamic man (the first "I") will continue to sin until the New creation-Man (the second "I") that is maturing to Christ full statue is birthed during the 1st resurrection or later on after the Millennium. Whereas, the New created Man conceived by the Holy Seed while being inside the womb cannot sin.
Can any of us here and now claim to have this perfection in that we are no longer committing any kind of sinful acts, thoughts, etc.???
I can -- that is my second "I" can -- who was begotten by the Holy Seed -- that "I" never sin and is as perfect as my Father in heaven is because it was begotten by Him.
Originally Posted By: Elle on Page 1
I do agree with JAK that perfection is not possible for the first “I” that was imputed Adam’s mortality(=death) (Rom 5:12).
However my understanding is there’s another “I” that is conceive by the Holy Spirit at our conversion and it grows until the day of the “manifestation of the Sons of God” comes. It’s only then that the first “I” vanish away("death is swallowed up" 1Cor 15:54) by birthing the second “I” that was begotten in us by the Holy Seed. That second “I” never sin, nor that it can -- thus it is perfect like our heavenly Father is.
AV 1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born(gennao) of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
The KJV and many other translation renders the word gennao as "born" creating confusion with this text. Its proper definition of gennao means “to be begotten” of “be conceive” especially in the context above. A "new creature" has been conceived at our conversion. It is the union of Christ’s seed(= the Holy Spirit) within our spirit(=the woman’s egg). So this “new creature” in us is half divine and half man like Jesus was half divine and half man. However it’s beginning starts small but grows until it is ready to be birthed. It lives inside our mortal body (aka "old man" or "the natural man" or “soulish man”) that carries the “new creature”. The “old man” is different and separate from the "new creature" that was begotten in us in the same way a woman is different and a separate entity from the child that is growing inside of her.
I believe that this is the two "I"s that Paul talks about in Rom 7 that are totally opposite. The first "I" (the old man that needs to be put to death daily) is in enmity against the law and the Lord, while the second "I" (the holy child growing inside of us) is in harmony and agrees with the Lord and His laws and it is perfect.
Originally Posted By: Elle Post#178833
Originally Posted By: asygo
Basically, you are asking if any of us can say that we have no sin. I think I know the answer.
Definetly our first "I" that is earthy or "soulish" and its father traces back to Adam, that "I" has sinned and cannot make the claim that he hasn't or believe he can stopped for "Can an Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots?"(Jer 13:23).
But for those of us, all of the believers, that was begotten from above, do have a "new creature" growing in us which Scriptures refers as "Christ in you, the hope of glory"(col 1:27). That "I" (the spiritual "I" or second "I") has never sin, nor can it.
The problem with Christianity today is they are trying to change the skin color of the first "I" or "sanitized" the first "I" which is an impossibility for it is enmity against God's law and will always be. That first "I" has sinned and has to die -- daily. No way around it.
We need to start to identify ourself with the second "I" by which is the only acceptable path and pattern Jesus has shown us by being "begotten from above".
Originally Posted By: Elle Post#178877
Originally Posted By: ASYGO
But while the first I is not yet completely eradicated, and therefore must be crucified daily, one cannot say he has no sin. His sinlessness is predicated on limiting the discussion to the New Man. Agreed?
It took awhile for me to understand what you were saying above. It wasn't your fault, but due to my limited vocabulary and handicap in understanding. Yes I do agree with what you say above.
Isn't this an unorthodox point of view? I don't think anyone in our Church has this view -- right? Despite I'm sure some people who spends a lot of time studying this subject like yourself have recognize this concept but maybe have not put it in such words. This view definitely helped me conciliadate many texts. I'm still not out of the dark as now I'm sorting out the texts talking about body, soul(mind), and spirit in this light.
Here's an interesting expanded form of Paul's view of the battle between these two "I" in Rom. 7:16-18.
The [Adamic man] and the [man of sin] are the first "I". The [Christ man] is the second "I".
16 But if I [Adamic man] do the very thing that I [Christ man] does not wish to do, I [Christ man] agree with the Law, confessing that it is good. 17 So now, no longer am I [Christ man] the one doing it, but [the man of] sin which indwells me. 18 For I [Christ man] know that nothing good dwells in me [Adamic man], that is, in my flesh.
The two problems that I see from understanding perfection :
-#1. is our theology mixing up the two "I" in one and trying to sanctify the first "I" (the Adamic Man).
-#2 if our understanding is correct that there's two separate "I" living in the believer, then which of the two "I" do you mostly identify yourself with? Hopefully with the second "I" (the Christ Man in you) like Paul did above.
Blessings
Re: A Proposed Change to Our 28 Fundamental Beliefs
[Re: Elle]
#187571 10/04/1811:59 AM10/04/1811:59 AM
The Lord saw wisdom in using the Adamic man to be the womb of the New Creature conceived in our spirit by the Holy Seed from our heavenly Father.
Elle, we who are born again have two natures according to scripture, I agree; the carnal and the spiritual, the flesh and the enlightened conscience. Some equate the soul with the flesh or carnal but doesn't the gospel teach the ransom of our souls. See what you think the inspired texts are saying but one thing seems clear: God's will is the sanctification of our whole nature, body, soul and spirit.
I'm convicted that the soul is especially that part of us that needs to be remade in the image of God. When we're born again we receive the spirit of adoption. In Gethsemane the Lord said to the disciples that they ought to pray and not sleep because although they were in sympathy with Him in spirit, their flesh was weak. Prayer would have strengthened their souls to withstand the temptation to forsake Him.
So again, what is the soul? It's the passions and emotions, that part that especially makes us human. We don't want to kill this like the monks and celibate priests try to do. We want the divine nature to transform our souls so that our emotions and passions align with the heart of God. How? The spirit nature is to have dominion over the soul nature. "Mind over matter" is the English proverb, or mind over matters that trouble us, over emotions.
Divine love is not an emotion. It is a principle that we are to abide in and this will sanctify and recreate emotional health and vitality in us. We'll not be stoically indifferent to our emotions or other's emotions. Instead, we'll have a "heart of flesh" that feels and resonates with the height and depth of the love, joy, pain and sorrow of God and of those around us. We'll be vibrantly alive emotionally.
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