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Re: God is wrapping it up!
[Re: Nadi]
#188357
01/28/19 09:49 AM
01/28/19 09:49 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
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In the end, I must hold that probation and the IJ is not just unbiblical, but actually challenge the attributes of the Deity, which is something I am unwilling to do.
One would have to devise a MUCH STRONGER argument, based on clear Scriptural evidence, if they expect or are hoping for a shift in my position.
The clear Scripture is that of the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur). The Testimony of an eyewitness is that of Ellen White, she was taken in vision to Heaven and related in her writings of that which she saw. In conclusion: We are in the antitypical day of atonement, and not only are we to humble our hearts before God and confess our sins, but we are, by all our educating talent, to seek to instruct those with whom we are brought in contact, and to bring them by precept and example to know God and Jesus Christ whom He hath sent. {CE 157.1}
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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Re: God is wrapping it up!
[Re: Elle]
#188363
01/28/19 02:15 PM
01/28/19 02:15 PM
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I agree.... but man having choices is not above God's Sovereignty overruling their choices when necessary for executing His Plan of establishing the Kingdom of God on this earth. Here I disagree, Elle. If God overrules man's choice then man in fact does NOT have free choice. Basically, the Old Covenant where the people made a silly and impossible vow to keep while the law is outside our hearts is founded on their ability to keep their vow. Whereas the New Covenant is not dependable on the people choices, but rather on God's ability to keep His vow. This I agree with. In the NC, we are dependant on God's ability, not ours.
"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: God is wrapping it up!
[Re: His child]
#188364
01/28/19 02:26 PM
01/28/19 02:26 PM
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The clear Scripture is that of the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur). Please demonstrate how. The Testimony of an eyewitness is that of Ellen White, she was taken in vision to Heaven and related in her writings of that which she saw. I do not hold to Ellen White, so any appeal to her or her writings is invalid.
"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: God is wrapping it up!
[Re: Nadi]
#188366
01/28/19 03:17 PM
01/28/19 03:17 PM
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Active Member 2019 Died February 12, 2019
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Posts: 2,536
Canada
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I agree.... but man having choices is not above God's Sovereignty overruling their choices when necessary for executing His Plan of establishing the Kingdom of God on this earth. Here I disagree, Elle. If God overrules man's choice then man in fact does NOT have free choice. God's Sovereignty is above man's choices. This doesn't mean man has no choice. It only means man's choices can be overruled or influenced by exterior events that man changes his choices. That happens all the time even daily.
Blessings
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Re: God is wrapping it up!
[Re: His child]
#188370
01/28/19 04:43 PM
01/28/19 04:43 PM
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So my question is "Why would God arbitrarily cut off one's choosing salvation, without any CLEAR, UNMISTAKABLE warning about WHEN this would happen??" This idea directly challenges the idea of the justice of God. Therefore I reject it.
No warning? Hmmm.... All through the Bible is the warning to follow God and keep His commandments. When people defiantly choose not to follow God, whether at any present or past time or at a time when the Government forces people to not follow God, have they not made that final choice?
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Re: God is wrapping it up!
[Re: Elle]
#188376
01/28/19 08:24 PM
01/28/19 08:24 PM
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God's Sovereignty is above man's choices. This doesn't mean man has no choice. It only means man's choices can be overruled or influenced by exterior events that man changes his choices. That happens all the time even daily. If God's sovereignty is above man's choice, then man's choice is trumped by God's sovereignty in cases where the two conflict, which is most of the time. Therefore man does not in fact have free choice. However, I do not think that man has a voice or choice in all things related to God's universe. I also think that God can speak to the heart and arrange circumstances to influence man's choice But he cannot flat-out over-ride. To influence is not the same as to over-ride.
"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: God is wrapping it up!
[Re: kland]
#188379
01/28/19 08:44 PM
01/28/19 08:44 PM
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So my question is "Why would God arbitrarily cut off one's choosing salvation, without any CLEAR, UNMISTAKABLE warning about WHEN this would happen??" This idea directly challenges the idea of the justice of God. Therefore I reject it.
No warning? Hmmm.... All through the Bible is the warning to follow God and keep His commandments. When people defiantly choose not to follow God, whether at any present or past time or at a time when the Government forces people to not follow God, have they not made that final choice? You appear to confuse warnings to follow God, which are in fact throughout the Bible, with warnings about the close of probation, ie: the end of the ability to choose, which is not. Not all warnings are equal. At no point does the Bible ever say "Choose now, because the ability to choose will come to an end." As in speaking of a time of probation.
"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: God is wrapping it up!
[Re: Nadi]
#188386
01/29/19 03:04 PM
01/29/19 03:04 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
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Posts: 6,512
Midland
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At no point does the Bible ever say "Choose now, because the ability to choose will come to an end." As in speaking of a time of probation.
Again, ... Re 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
I think they are dead, don't you?
When did they make their decision? Before that time, right?
Re 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
So would you agree, that they have made that choice prior to the physical second coming?
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Re: God is wrapping it up!
[Re: kland]
#188391
01/29/19 05:02 PM
01/29/19 05:02 PM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2020
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Posts: 288
Canada
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At no point does the Bible ever say "Choose now, because the ability to choose will come to an end." As in speaking of a time of probation.
Again, ... Re 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
I think they are dead, don't you?
When did they make their decision? Before that time, right?
Re 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
So would you agree, that they have made that choice prior to the physical second coming? So, kland, at this point I really have no idea what you are trying to drive at with this dead thing. I have stated my position. It would help me a lot if you would simply state your premise and supporting evidence. That would help to clarify views.
"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: God is wrapping it up!
[Re: Nadi]
#188392
01/29/19 09:53 PM
01/29/19 09:53 PM
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Active Member 2019 Died February 12, 2019
2500+ Member
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
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God's Sovereignty is above man's choices. This doesn't mean man has no choice. It only means man's choices can be overruled or influenced by exterior events that man changes his choices. That happens all the time even daily. If God's sovereignty is above man's choice, then man's choice is trumped by God's sovereignty in cases where the two conflict, which is most of the time. Therefore man does not in fact have free choice. However, I do not think that man has a voice or choice in all things related to God's universe. I also think that God can speak to the heart and arrange circumstances to influence man's choice But he cannot flat-out over-ride. To influence is not the same as to over-ride. There's 3 words : Sovereignty: God because He created all things is the supreme ruler the King above all kings. He establish in His laws what is sin, what is the plan of salvation, the rights of man, what is righteous judgment, etc... Man cannot change these. Man has not the right to sin against God or his neighbor. And that is why he will be judge according to God's law. In all of this God is patient, merciful, forgiven and active in teaching us His laws so He can write them on our hearts so doing right becomes natural for us. Authority : God gives man some authority. Again if He gives a man the authority to be king or to be head of a household; man has to use his authority according to God's law. He cannot be like King Saul and do what he wants. This is usurping God's position. All thru the bible God removes man's authority when abuse and gives it to another. Choices : Choices falls below authority. If your king of the nation decides to conduct a war; it will effect your choices that you had made. When God executed judgment over the nation of Israel at the captivity; people's choices were to a great extend was override by the event. Choices is important to exercise obedience and to learn what's right or wrong. There's choices, but choices is often changed by events. Man can be in denial and stick to his choices even thought reality in front of him shows he will become a slave or die. So I don't know if the term over-ride is appropriate. Man just needs to face reality and reconsider his past choices and adjust with new choices. You talk about conflict. As far as I understand this text... the conflict is not against flesh & blood. The conflict happens in the spiritual realm above against "but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." God's conflict is against those spiritual ruling entities in high places. All demons does not occupy these high position; but benefit from their work to exercise evil works in the world that influence humans. These evil entities has to be cast at Jesus feet for judgment with the involvement of man who can hear and be God's Amen people to deal with these.
Blessings
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