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“consequentialist morality” versus “absolutism.” #189115
04/12/19 04:23 PM
04/12/19 04:23 PM
K
kland  Offline OP
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From https://stream.org/atheist-richard-dawkins-cannibalism/

Consequentialism says that the consequences of a person’s actions should be the sole basis to judge whether those actions are right or wrong. There is nothing inherently right or wrong in any act, but only what flows from an act.

Absolutism, contrast, does not deny consequences, but insists acts can be good or bad in themselves.

It always turns out to be the common sense of the person advocating consequentialism. That makes their opinions and judgments the absolutes to which everybody else must bow. We’d better pray that they get their common sense judgments right. Otherwise, who knows who will turn up on the menu?

Re: “consequentialist morality” versus “absolutism.” [Re: kland] #189177
04/23/19 02:23 AM
04/23/19 02:23 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
From https://stream.org/atheist-richard-dawkins-cannibalism/

Consequentialism says that the consequences of a person’s actions should be the sole basis to judge whether those actions are right or wrong. There is nothing inherently right or wrong in any act, but only what flows from an act.

Absolutism, contrast, does not deny consequences, but insists acts can be good or bad in themselves.

It always turns out to be the common sense of the person advocating consequentialism. That makes their opinions and judgments the absolutes to which everybody else must bow. We’d better pray that they get their common sense judgments right. Otherwise, who knows who will turn up on the menu?

From your quote, the first (Consequentialism) is true and something Jesus taught.
  • First, that it is true, is found in the sixth commandment of the Decalogue, "You shall not murder." Exod. 20:13. Indeed God did command saying so, but consider that He was the one who commanded elsewhere, "... you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive, but you shall utterly destroy them ... just as the Lord your God has commanded you, lest they teach you to do according to all their abominations which they have done for their gods, and you sin against the Lord your God." Deut. 20:16-18

    Notice how the outcome of "the act of killing" -- the underlined text -- determined whether the act was right or wrong. In this particular case, it was right, being justified by the consequence of not doing so.
     
  • We have another example given by Jesus Christ Himself. Concerning the Sabbath day, He spoke saying, "... have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God and ate the show-bread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?" Mat. 12:3-5
As children of God, we are guided NOT BY LAW but by wisdom that serves the principle of life, truth and peace from an eternal perspective, the kind which allows for some strange judgments but which, over the long term, prove good.

///

Re: “consequentialist morality” versus “absolutism.” [Re: kland] #189189
04/25/19 12:02 AM
04/25/19 12:02 AM
K
kland  Offline OP
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What is "good"? How does one determine that?

Re: “consequentialist morality” versus “absolutism.” [Re: kland] #189191
04/25/19 10:01 AM
04/25/19 10:01 AM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
What is "good"? How does one determine that?

"... that [which] serves the principle of life, truth and peace from an eternal perspective" -- as I already showed you. An act is not good in and of itself but is good because of its consequence in view of eternity.

Jesus allowing Himself to suffer the excruciating pain of the cross was not good if viewed within the narrow frame of life on earth (who welcomes suffering for doing nothing wrong?) but given the redemption of the world as a consequence, we hear this song echoed across the universe, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom, and strength and honor and glory and blessing!" Rev. 5:12

///

Re: “consequentialist morality” versus “absolutism.” [Re: James Peterson] #189192
04/25/19 01:40 PM
04/25/19 01:40 PM
N
Nadi  Offline
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson
"... that [which] serves the principle of life, truth and peace from an eternal perspective" -- as I already showed you. An act is not good in and of itself but is good because of its consequence in view of eternity.
True,....sort of. The question now becomes "And just what are 'the principle of life, truth and peace from an eternal perspective' and who determines that?"

The Catholic Church used this argument in the Middle Ages to justify burning heretics and homosexuals (and others, typically those who disagreed with them) at the stake. "It's for your own good, because if we burn you now you will spend less time burning in hell." I'm sure that was a great consolation to the condemned. Certain people groups justify FGM on the same basis. Child sacrifices, often by burning, were also justified by this theory.

Secondly, this argument usually turns out to be the protectionist rhetoric of those in power, not concerned with YOUR good or the good of SOCIETY but rather keeping THEIR power, control, and economic structures in place for their own benefit.

I would rather suggest that "good" refers to that which promotes the happiness, contentment, well-being etc. of yourself and others, and reduces stress, anxiety, fear, etc. in same, IRRESPECTIVE of any "eternal" considerations. This causes "GOOD" to answer to the immediate concerns and context of the individuals involved, and keeps it "HONEST." One can no longer justify their evil actions by claiming "It's for your own good in the long run." (As with any argument, certain caveats apply.)

It's a "good car" because it keeps running and doesn't cause you worry.
It's a "good house" because you feel comfortable in it and it doesn't require constant maintenance and repair.
He/She is a "good friend" because you trust them and they don't cause you stress, etc.
It's a "good decision" because it moves you closer to your goals.
Dinner was "good" because it tasted pleasant, didn't make you sick, and prolonged your life.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: “consequentialist morality” versus “absolutism.” [Re: kland] #189193
04/25/19 06:24 PM
04/25/19 06:24 PM
N
Nadi  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 288
Canada
Originally Posted By: kland
It always turns out to be the common sense of the person advocating consequentialism. That makes their opinions and judgments the absolutes to which everybody else must bow.
Not really. At best it is the absolute only for those within their sphere of influence. Even then the next person's "common sense" modifies it, so the end product is a median of "common senses, opinions, and judgements." This is even a legal aspect: the "rational common man" is often used as a standard to which the accused's behavior is compared.

On the other hand, I care not a whit, nor am I influenced by, the "common sense" of a person from Fiji, Zaire, or Croatia (just random examples) because it does not affect me in the least. I do, however, care much about the "common sense" of my wife, because that affects me a great deal.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: “consequentialist morality” versus “absolutism.” [Re: Nadi] #189194
04/25/19 07:12 PM
04/25/19 07:12 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Nadi
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
"... that [which] serves the principle of life, truth and peace from an eternal perspective" -- as I already showed you. An act is not good in and of itself but is good because of its consequence in view of eternity.
True,....sort of. The question now becomes "And just what are 'the principle of life, truth and peace from an eternal perspective' and who determines that?"

The Catholic Church used this argument in the Middle Ages to justify burning heretics and homosexuals (and others, typically those who disagreed with them) at the stake. "It's for your own good, because if we burn you now you will spend less time burning in hell." I'm sure that was a great consolation to the condemned. Certain people groups justify FGM on the same basis. Child sacrifices, often by burning, were also justified by this theory.

Secondly, this argument usually turns out to be the protectionist rhetoric of those in power, not concerned with YOUR good or the good of SOCIETY but rather keeping THEIR power, control, and economic structures in place for their own benefit.

I would rather suggest that "good" refers to that which promotes the happiness, contentment, well-being etc. of yourself and others, and reduces stress, anxiety, fear, etc. in same, IRRESPECTIVE of any "eternal" considerations. This causes "GOOD" to answer to the immediate concerns and context of the individuals involved, and keeps it "HONEST." One can no longer justify their evil actions by claiming "It's for your own good in the long run." (As with any argument, certain caveats apply.)

It's a "good car" because it keeps running and doesn't cause you worry.
It's a "good house" because you feel comfortable in it and it doesn't require constant maintenance and repair.
He/She is a "good friend" because you trust them and they don't cause you stress, etc.
It's a "good decision" because it moves you closer to your goals.
Dinner was "good" because it tasted pleasant, didn't make you sick, and prolonged your life.

Your references to "a good car, a good house, a good friend, a good decision ..." are not relevant. This is not about the condition of objects but a question of morality.

What determines the intrinsic goodness of an act is, again, dependent on an eternal perspective: does it "serve the principle of life, truth and peace" in the long run. It is not about WHO determines its goodness (what the Roman Catholics did is irrelevant) but rather whether at the end of eternity, so to speak, the act in and of itself preserved and/or resulted in life, truth and peace.

Nevertheless, as to WHO ALONE determines that so that we are guided properly in the here and now, you know the answer and need not that anyone tell you.

///

Re: “consequentialist morality” versus “absolutism.” [Re: James Peterson] #189195
04/25/19 10:23 PM
04/25/19 10:23 PM
N
Nadi  Offline
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Active Member 2020
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 288
Canada
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Your references to "a good car, a good house, a good friend, a good decision ..." are not relevant. This is not about the condition of objects but a question of morality.
"Are ye yet so dull?"
"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"
I'm surprised you need this explained to you. As far as relevance goes, well, that's just the pot calling the kettle black.


Originally Posted By: James Peterson
What determines the intrinsic goodness of an act is, again, dependent on an eternal perspective: does it "serve the principle of life, truth and peace" in the long run. It is not about WHO determines its goodness (what the Roman Catholics did is irrelevant) but rather whether at the end of eternity, so to speak, the act in and of itself preserved and/or resulted in life, truth and peace.
Rubbish.
The goodness of an act is determined by whether it builds stability in the cosmic system (ie: contributes to love, cooperation, and harmony) or adds to the overall chaos and entropy.
Eternity has nothing to do with it being "good" or not. Rather, the act itself, or more precisely the effect of the acts collectively, affects eternity.

I don't expect you to understand that.

Last edited by Nadi; 04/25/19 10:40 PM.

"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: “consequentialist morality” versus “absolutism.” [Re: Nadi] #189196
04/26/19 12:05 AM
04/26/19 12:05 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Nadi
... the act itself, or more precisely the effect of the acts collectively, affects eternity.

That's the point I've been making from the beginning. So we agree then.

///

Re: “consequentialist morality” versus “absolutism.” [Re: kland] #189203
04/26/19 07:26 PM
04/26/19 07:26 PM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,707
Canada
What does scripture have to say about these issues?

Is there an "absolute" rightness beyond "rational common sense"?

Are there consequences beyond the scope of seemingly right decisions for comfortable, seemingly stable, making everyone happy, for the supposedly good of society, that have NEGATIVE eternal consequences?
That may also have an eventual future, collective" negative effect on society in the present realms as well.

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