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Re: The Sign of Jonah in This Generation
[Re: Mountain Man]
#189402
05/17/19 11:14 AM
05/17/19 11:14 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
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James, good points. However, why so long in the grave? How does Jonah fit? Everything God does has a purpose. So another way of asking why three days is to ask why was that the right amount of time. The gospels show it was about 36 hours total of the Lord's physical death. To me that's the right amount of time to show beyond a doubt that Christ did die for our sins. It was enough time to pierce His side, to put Him in a grave and seal it with the seal of the highest authority on earth, the Roman Empire, to station a guard of a hundred strong soldiers of that same Empire who would become the helpless and powerless witnesses of His all powerful Resurrection. The Resurrection is therefore the mighty sign of Jonah. The main point that God wants us to understand and believe in this sign is that God so loved the world that He did give His only begotten Son to die for us.
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Re: The Sign of Jonah in This Generation
[Re: Charity]
#189403
05/17/19 02:42 PM
05/17/19 02:42 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Charity, I am perfectly content taking God at His word - even if I don't completely understand every detail. Being in "the heart of the earth" from Thursday night to Sunday morning was the right amount of time for reasons that make sense to God. I'm good with that. Thank you, Jesus.
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Re: The Sign of Jonah in This Generation
[Re: Charity]
#189406
05/17/19 06:31 PM
05/17/19 06:31 PM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
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James, good points. However, why so long in the grave? How does Jonah fit? Everything God does has a purpose. So another way of asking why three days is to ask why was that the right amount of time. The gospels show it was about 36 hours total of the Lord's physical death. To me that's the right amount of time to show beyond a doubt that Christ did die for our sins. It was enough time to pierce His side, to put Him in a grave and seal it with the seal of the highest authority on earth, the Roman Empire, to station a guard of a hundred strong soldiers of that same Empire who would become the helpless and powerless witnesses of His all powerful Resurrection. The Resurrection is therefore the mighty sign of Jonah. The main point that God wants us to understand and believe in this sign is that God so loved the world that He did give His only begotten Son to die for us. - So who gave YOU licence to say that "the heart of the earth" is being arrested by the Jews? You demand a literal meaning for "three days and three nights" and then destroy your own house of cards by building a figurative tower on top, attributing symbolism to "the heart of the earth".
What is it to be:
1. LITERAL three days and three nights in a LITERAL grave, or 2. SYMBOLIC three days and three nights in a SYMBOLIC place?
If a literal 72 hours (as you demand), then it is a literal grave (which it wasn't in that length of time). But if a symbolic place, then a literal 72 hours is NOT meant.
- As I've said a million times already, look carefully at the way Jesus Christ interpreted His own words. It was not about the time spent UNDERNEATH THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH, but about the miracle of the resurrection (being taken for dead, and defying the expectation!):
"The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here." Mat. 12:41-42
See the allusion also to the wonder of Solomon? But SDA are like those who would not let go of a comforter in the mouth for the nourishing food of adulthood.
///
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Re: The Sign of Jonah in This Generation
[Re: James Peterson]
#189408
05/18/19 12:39 AM
05/18/19 12:39 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
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- So who gave YOU licence to say that "the heart of the earth" is being arrested by the Jews? You demand a literal meaning for "three days and three nights" and then destroy your own house of cards by building a figurative tower on top, attributing symbolism to "the heart of the earth".
A couple posts ago I said I was wrong in requiring a 72 or 84 hour period. Matthew Henry's commentary convinced me I was wrong. About the arrest being the start of the three days and nights I can see why some would have that view and I held a similar view before now but I think now that Henry's view is the closest to scripture. And since you agree with Henry James we have the same view I think. But again, it is worth storing away in our memories how closely the ministry of the Two Witnesses mirrors the ministry of Christ - 3.5 years followed by the sign of Jonah. Consider the possiblity friends that their ministry is a type of the church under the latter rain and the good news is that these witnesses are about to start giving their testimony if they haven't started already.
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Re: The Sign of Jonah in This Generation
[Re: James Peterson]
#189409
05/18/19 02:01 AM
05/18/19 02:01 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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James, good points. However, why so long in the grave? How does Jonah fit? Everything God does has a purpose. So another way of asking why three days is to ask why was that the right amount of time. The gospels show it was about 36 hours total of the Lord's physical death. To me that's the right amount of time to show beyond a doubt that Christ did die for our sins. It was enough time to pierce His side, to put Him in a grave and seal it with the seal of the highest authority on earth, the Roman Empire, to station a guard of a hundred strong soldiers of that same Empire who would become the helpless and powerless witnesses of His all powerful Resurrection. The Resurrection is therefore the mighty sign of Jonah. The main point that God wants us to understand and believe in this sign is that God so loved the world that He did give His only begotten Son to die for us. - So who gave YOU licence to say that "the heart of the earth" is being arrested by the Jews? You demand a literal meaning for "three days and three nights" and then destroy your own house of cards by building a figurative tower on top, attributing symbolism to "the heart of the earth".
What is it to be:
1. LITERAL three days and three nights in a LITERAL grave, or 2. SYMBOLIC three days and three nights in a SYMBOLIC place?
If a literal 72 hours (as you demand), then it is a literal grave (which it wasn't in that length of time). But if a symbolic place, then a literal 72 hours is NOT meant.
- As I've said a million times already, look carefully at the way Jesus Christ interpreted His own words. It was not about the time spent UNDERNEATH THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH, but about the miracle of the resurrection (being taken for dead, and defying the expectation!):
"The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here." Mat. 12:41-42
See the allusion also to the wonder of Solomon? But SDA are like those who would not let go of a comforter in the mouth for the nourishing food of adulthood.
/// James, I think you may have meant to address me instead, as I am the one who posted the interpretation you appear to dislike. But you made one statement that deserves some consideration: "As I've said a million times already, look carefully at the way Jesus Christ interpreted His own words."Let's look at some examples of Jesus' own words. 1) "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep." (John 11:11) "Sleep" = "dead" (cf. vs. 14). 2) "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3) "Born again" here is obviously not literal nor physical. 3) "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:23) So, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are "living." Is that literal and physical? 4) "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." (Mark 10:25) Literally? -- You see, Jesus regularly, nearly always, had a symbolic truth to express in the examples He gave. He speaks from a higher, spiritual realm, truths that elevate our thoughts from the mundane, physical world. The physical realm provided Jesus with object lessons that He could use to teach these greater truths. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Sign of Jonah in This Generation
[Re: Charity]
#189410
05/18/19 02:04 AM
05/18/19 02:04 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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- So who gave YOU licence to say that "the heart of the earth" is being arrested by the Jews? You demand a literal meaning for "three days and three nights" and then destroy your own house of cards by building a figurative tower on top, attributing symbolism to "the heart of the earth".
A couple posts ago I said I was wrong in requiring a 72 or 84 hour period. Matthew Henry's commentary convinced me I was wrong. About the arrest being the start of the three days and nights I can see why some would have that view and I held a similar view before now but I think now that Henry's view is the closest to scripture. And since you agree with Henry James we have the same view I think. But again, it is worth storing away in our memories how closely the ministry of the Two Witnesses mirrors the ministry of Christ - 3.5 years followed by the sign of Jonah. Consider the possiblity friends that their ministry is a type of the church under the latter rain and the good news is that these witnesses are about to start giving their testimony if they haven't started already. Matthew Henry fails to acknowledge that the sign of Jonah was not merely three "days" but "three days AND three nights." His explanation is simply glossing over what he obviously could understand in no other way, being human and uninspired. When the Bible speaks of both days and nights, we cannot just wave away its words with a "parts of three days" interpretation that has no relationship to three nights. God means what He says. If we have no explanation for the three nights, it simply shows that we have not yet properly understood the text. Matthew Henry did not understand it. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Sign of Jonah in This Generation
[Re: Charity]
#189421
05/18/19 12:19 PM
05/18/19 12:19 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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How Long Was Christ In The Grave? (from The Bible Handbook) In the following texts we are told nine times that Christ should rise "the third day." Mat_16:21. "Raised again the third day." Mat_17:23. "The third day He shall be raised again." Mat_20:19. "The third day He shall rise again." Mar_10:34. "The third day He shall rise again." Luk_9:22. "Be raised the third day." Luk_18:33. "The third day He shall rise again." Luk_24:7. "The third day rise again." Mar_9:31. "He shall rise the third day." Luk_24:46. "To rise form the dead the third day." In order that the Scripture be fulfilled, Christ must have risen some time within the limit of the twenty-four hours composing the third day. At the first Passover after His baptism, the Saviour said, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." Joh_2:19. In other words, within the period of time covered by the third day, He would rise. This made a deep impression on the Jews, for they brought it up against His three years later in His trial. Mat_26:61. On Thursday evening, or what would in Bible time be the evening of Friday, the Saviour delivered Himself into the hands of the wicked mob; from that time He was in their power. In Mar_8:31. Christ said He would be "rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again." Sometime before the angry mob came to arrest Him, He had been "rejected," otherwise they would never have gathered to take Him. "After three days" had passed from the time of His rejection, He rose again. Christ was arrested Thursday evening; the trial lasted all night. At noon on Friday He was crucified. He died about three o'clock in the afternoon, and rested in the tomb until the third day. The Jews asked for a sign. Mat_12:38-40. After saying the wicked ask for signs, Christ said that they should have the sign of Jonas the prophet. "As Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." If we take this language literally as it reads, we must understand that Christ spent three days and three nights in the heart, or center, of the earth; but the tomb of Joseph in which the Saviour lay was on the surface of the ground in plain sight. The term "earth" is often used when referring to the people on the earth. Jer_6:19; Isa_1:2. From the evening Christ delivered Himself into the hands of the mob until He came forth a mighty conqueror, He was in the hands of the people; the "heart of the earth." This is according to the words of the angel: "The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." Luk_24:4-7. He rose the third day after He delivered Himself "into the hands of sinful men."
Evening - Morning, Evening - Morning, Evening - Morning. And of course the rest of the sign is the preaching.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: The Sign of Jonah in This Generation
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#189430
05/18/19 09:14 PM
05/18/19 09:14 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
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- So who gave YOU licence to say that "the heart of the earth" is being arrested by the Jews? You demand a literal meaning for "three days and three nights" and then destroy your own house of cards by building a figurative tower on top, attributing symbolism to "the heart of the earth".
A couple posts ago I said I was wrong in requiring a 72 or 84 hour period. Matthew Henry's commentary convinced me I was wrong. About the arrest being the start of the three days and nights I can see why some would have that view and I held a similar view before now but I think now that Henry's view is the closest to scripture. And since you agree with Henry James we have the same view I think. But again, it is worth storing away in our memories how closely the ministry of the Two Witnesses mirrors the ministry of Christ - 3.5 years followed by the sign of Jonah. Consider the possiblity friends that their ministry is a type of the church under the latter rain and the good news is that these witnesses are about to start giving their testimony if they haven't started already. Matthew Henry fails to acknowledge that the sign of Jonah was not merely three "days" but "three days AND three nights." His explanation is simply glossing over what he obviously could understand in no other way, being human and uninspired. When the Bible speaks of both days and nights, we cannot just wave away its words with a "parts of three days" interpretation that has no relationship to three nights. God means what He says. If we have no explanation for the three nights, it simply shows that we have not yet properly understood the text. Matthew Henry did not understand it. Blessings, Green Cochoa. Henry, if you read him carefully, seems to be saying that three days and nights is not an accurate translation of the Greek. He's suggesting that the Greek idiom might translate literally as three days and nights but that is not the actual Greek meaning and therefore is a mistranslation because the intended meaning is what a Greek would understand. Not being an expert in Greek, I can't say myself but this expression about the sign of Jonah is the only place where three days and nights appears in all of the nine references of Christ and the Apostles. In every other one it is three days. Two things tipped the scales for me towards Henry's view 1)A friend of mine pointed out that the other expression of the same sign given by Christ himself was "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up." If He meant three literal days and nights as being an important part of the sign of Jonah then He would have framed it in the same terms because this sign is the same sign in different language, and 2)because the historic fulfilment is what should be used to interpret the prophetic symbol not vice versa. At the end of the day we have to take the historical accounts as the divine facts that the Lord intends for us to use to unlock the true meaning of the prophecy of Christ. That said, I freely admit that the Two Witnesses who mirror Christ's 3.5 year ministry are in the grave for a minimum of three days and nights. On balance I still go with Henry. It agrees best with the gospel accounts. But let's not make too much of this. We're called to freedom and one of the evidences of the Spirit of God among us is our mutual respect and love when we differ on minor points.
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Re: The Sign of Jonah in This Generation
[Re: Charity]
#189436
05/19/19 12:05 AM
05/19/19 12:05 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Henry, if you read him carefully, seems to be saying that three days and nights is not an accurate translation of the Greek. He's suggesting that the Greek idiom might translate literally as three days and nights but that is not the actual Greek meaning and therefore is a mistranslation because the intended meaning is what a Greek would understand. Not being an expert in Greek, I can't say myself but this expression about the sign of Jonah is the only place where three days and nights appears in all of the nine references of Christ and the Apostles. In every other one it is three days.
Two things tipped the scales for me towards Henry's view 1)A friend of mine pointed out that the other expression of the same sign given by Christ himself was "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up." If He meant three literal days and nights as being an important part of the sign of Jonah then He would have framed it in the same terms because this sign is the same sign in different language, and 2)because the historic fulfilment is what should be used to interpret the prophetic symbol not vice versa. At the end of the day we have to take the historical accounts as the divine facts that the Lord intends for us to use to unlock the true meaning of the prophecy of Christ.
That said, I freely admit that the Two Witnesses who mirror Christ's 3.5 year ministry are in the grave for a minimum of three days and nights. On balance I still go with Henry. It agrees best with the gospel accounts. But let's not make too much of this. We're called to freedom and one of the evidences of the Spirit of God among us is our mutual respect and love when we differ on minor points. The fact is this: The "sign of Jonah" and the "destroy this temple" are two separate references and do not speak of the same time periods. The sign of Jonah speaks of Christ's time "at the heart of the earth (land/country)." The "destroy this temple" speaks of His time in death. Those are separate things. The "heart of the earth" reference includes more than just the time in the tomb. S. N. Haskell, one of our pioneers, wrote this about the "heart of the earth" reference: The Jews asked for a sign. Matt. 12:38-40. After saying the wicked ask for signs, Christ said that they should have the sign of Jonas the prophet.
"As Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." If we take this language literally as it reads, we must understand that Christ spent three days and three nights in the heart, or center, of the earth; but the tomb of Joseph in which the Saviour lay was on the surface of the ground in plain sight. The term "earth" is often used when referring to the people on the earth. Jer. 6:19; Isa. 1:2. From the evening Christ delivered Himself into the hands of the mob until He came forth a mighty conqueror, He was in the hands of the people; the "heart of the earth." {1919 SNH, BHB 183.9}
This is according to the words of the angel: "The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." Luke 24:4-7. He rose the third day after He delivered Himself "into the hands of sinful men." {1919 SNH, BHB 184.1} Note that Haskell agrees with me in that the two time periods have the same ending point. Jesus, when He emerged from the tomb, clearly freed Himself of the custody of the authorities. At one and the same time He broke the bonds of death and broke the bonds of dominion to the authorities at the "heart" of the earth. Because I have been studying Hebrew, and have been working on a new Bible translation, I have acquired one of the best possible Bible study tools. Unfortunately, the Bible Works software went out of business last year. It was very capable and arguably the best. But the Accordance Bible software remains as the best in the market today. With it, the original texts can be read with all of the grammatical marks carefully studied for each Greek or Hebrew word. For example, is the word in the accusative case, nominative case, etc. (for Greek)? Is the word singular, plural, masculine, feminine, gender neutral, passive/active voice, etc.? It is even possible to compare with more than one source text, and the software parallels the translated words with a side-by-side version, such as the KJV, that is opened in a separate pane. It is marvelous, and has helped me take my enjoyment of Bible study to a whole new level. The software isn't cheap, by some standards, yet considering what one gets for it is well worth it. The Greek text says this: "τρεῖς ἡμέρας καὶ τρεῖς νύκτας." Let's break that down: Greek Word | Grammar and Meaning | Strong's Number |
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τρεῖς | three | G5140 | ἡμέρας | noun, feminine, plural, accusative (object): day, lifetime, time period | G2250 | καὶ | and | G2532 | τρεῖς | three | G5140 | νύκτας | noun, feminine, plural, accusative (object): night | G3571 |
I see no indication of this being subject to a mere idiomatic expression here. The words are very literal. If we relegate this to that of an idiom, we cannot but do violence to multiple other prophetic passages in which the days are specifically numbered. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Sign of Jonah in This Generation
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#189549
05/25/19 06:43 AM
05/25/19 06:43 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
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Steve Ben-Nun (pronounced Ben Noon), producer/founder of Israeli News Live, a Messianic Jew I think, has some interesting material that points the finger at the ADL (Anti-Defamation League) a Jewish organization as being a major force behind the global movement to remove free speech on sexual orientation. He is raising the alarm that the ADL is one of the most effective forces to slay the Two Witnesses by globally promoting "Hate Speech" legislation. He had a guest on yesterday or the day before, Pastor Ted Pike, who made the case that historically the ADL has been at the forefront of destroying family values and with it, free speech and religious freedom - ironically, all in the name of toleration. I bring this up because it appears to be the mirror picture of what is unfolding in Adventism with the Zeal 19 conference and Pastor Polite. For more on this see this Fulcrum7 article. The prophecy tells us that Christ in the person of the Two Witnesses will be slain again in the house of His friends.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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