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Re: Is it true St. Patrick kept the 7th Day Sabbath! [Re: dedication] #186308
03/29/18 11:52 AM
03/29/18 11:52 AM
Daryl  Online Canadian

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dedication,

Can you provide sources to almost everything that is in that link???

Originally Posted By: dedication
The Roman Church claimed Patrick as one of them, thus you will see false claims, but history tells a different story.
There is no evidence that Patrick ever received any papal blessing, in fact history shows the opposite.

The history of Patrick and the Celtic Church

//



In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Is it true St. Patrick kept the 7th Day Sabbath! [Re: Daryl] #186318
03/30/18 10:15 PM
03/30/18 10:15 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Daryl
dedication,

Can you provide sources to almost everything that is in that link???

Oh, good catch.

Dedication, that's not good referencing.

Re: Is it true St. Patrick kept the 7th Day Sabbath! [Re: Rick H] #186326
04/01/18 06:46 AM
04/01/18 06:46 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Going to all the modern web pages with their pictures of St. Patrick with a big fish hat on his head, dressed in papal garments, with their mythical stories of him magically driving all the snakes into the ocean, is what I would NOT call "good referencing", it doesn't even match up to historical facts.

As to the linked web page -- the first paragraphs of his early life draw on what Patrick himself wrote in the two letters still in existence.
The next part has at least six or more different references listed.
The last part is largely quotes from "Historical Studies" by Eugene Lawrence from the section called "Conquest of Ireland".

Just think about the historical setting -- Patrick lived in the early 400's A.D.
Rome was being over run by barbarians, and struggling for its very survival. England, once under Roman jurisdiction was also being overrun by different barbarians from the north, and Rome, far from helping them, told them they were on their own -- they were basically cut off from Rome by 410 A.D.
Patrick, himself was carried off as a slave to Ireland -- he himself said so in the letter he wrote that is still in existance.

Study a bit of history for yourself and see which stories fit.

Study some on the early Celtic Church -- who were the actual missionaries who brought Christianity to far western Europe?
If you look at Christianity in much of western Europe prior to 500 A.D. most were NOT Roman Catholic Christians. That's why they (like the Goths, Visigoths) had to be conquered (uprooted) before the papacy could enter it's 1260 year domination in 538 A.D.

Of course now "scholars" will deny the "celtic church" but their very denials show it was part of history.

One website states:
""One of the common misconceptions is that there was a 'Roman Church' to which the 'Celtic' was nationally opposed"

A misconception? Or a fact that must now be denied? That is a question we need to explore.

Actually Clovis was the first western king, in 509 A.D. to convert to Roman Catholic Religion and to start enforcing the papal religion in western Europe- he defeated the Visigoths (who had already accepted "non Catholic" Christianity), but later, around 580, became Catholics.

How strong was the papacy at this point (early 400's)? The eastern Emperor (Theodosius II)was still calling the "ecumenical councils" of the church, not the pope. Augustine was busy writing his "The City of God", arguing for the truth of Christianity over competing religions and philosophies. Bishops in Northern Africa were chastising the pope and demanding their autonomy. The whole "primacy" of the Bishop of Rome was still being challenged.

Next, consider that years later, (1100's A.D.) papal Rome was very hostile to Ireland's Christianity. It is an historical fact that Pope Adrian IV (the only Englishman to become pope) issued and published the Papal Bull Laudabiliter, to King Henry II, telling him to conquer Ireland --- he wrote : “You may enter that island and do there what has to do with the honour of God and the salvation of the land. And may the people of that land receive you with honour and revere you as their lord ... dearest son in Christ, you want to subject its people to the laws and to root out from it the weeds of vice ... We therefore duly favour your pious and praiseworthy desire ... and are well pleased to agree to that, to extend the boundaries of the Church, restrain vice, correct morals, implant virtues, increase the Christian religion, you may enter that island"

Obviously Catholic Rome didn't consider Ireland to be "in the boundaries of the church". Henry II wasn't on a religious mission either -- he was out to conquer and subject the Irish.

I also have the books "Early Christian Ireland" by Maire and Liam de Paor, and "Historical Studies" by Eugene Lawrence with a section called "Conquest of Ireland".

If you want the historical truth -- you can find it, if you want to believe the myths -- they can readily be found as well.




Re: Is it true St. Patrick kept the 7th Day Sabbath! [Re: Rick H] #186337
04/02/18 08:07 PM
04/02/18 08:07 PM
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kland  Offline
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Daryl was wanting references and what you wrote at the link was not so clear. But maybe they're not online.

Re: Is it true St. Patrick kept the 7th Day Sabbath! [Re: Rick H] #186340
04/03/18 01:36 AM
04/03/18 01:36 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
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When I studied for my minor in history, the internet as we now know it, wasn't invented yet. (At least not for the common citizens) Books were still the treasure chest of information! And books I still have.
However, if one takes the time to search, they can find the basic history on the internet. In fact, the book "Historical Studies" by Eugene Lawrence can be found on the internet.

However, the life of Patrick can be quite confusing on the internet -- often more myth than fact.


It also would help if the person asking for more references would indicate for exactly what part they want references?

Patrick's early life? -- (I don't think that is even contested)
That the Christians in Ireland worshipped on Saturday? (That is the theme of this thread)
The conquest of Ireland to overthrow their Christianity and replace it with Roman Catholic Christianity?

Re: Is it true St. Patrick kept the 7th Day Sabbath! [Re: Rick H] #186343
04/03/18 04:20 AM
04/03/18 04:20 AM
dedication  Online Content
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O.K. lets look for references that Christians in Ireland, from St. Patrick's day in the early 400's, for the next few centuries kept the seventh day Sabbath.

Quotes from the afore mentioned webpage:

Quote:
According to one historian:
"We find traces in the early monastic church of Ireland that they held Saturday to be the Sabbath on which they rested from all their labors." (W.T. Skene, Adamnan Life of St. Columba, p. 96)


Adamnan lived on the tiny Island of Iona, north of Ireland, around 679 to 704 A.D. Adamnan wrote an account of Irish born, Columba, (521-597) who was an influential Christian missionary to the tribes in Northern Britain. If you read through his account you will find several places where Columba refers to Saturday as the Sabbath, the day of rest. As Skene says -- there are traces there that they kept Sabbath.

Example
"And so at the end of the same week, that is on
the Sabbath day [Saturday], he and his dutiful
attendant, Diormit, go to bless the granary....
the venerable man
thereupon thus speaks : In the Sacred Volumes this day is called the Sabbath, which is interpreted, Rest. And this day is truly a Sabbath day for me... (section 225)



Quote:
Also Professor Moffet says: "It seems to have been customary in the Celtic churches of early times, in Ireland as well as Scotland, to keep Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, as a day of rest from labor. They obeyed the fourth commandment literally upon the seventh day." (The Church in Scotland, p. 140)


You can find many more quotes that the Celtic Church kept Saturday, the Seventh day Sabbath.
Quote:

"The Scots in this matter had no doubt kept up the traditional practice of the ancient monistic church of Ireland which observe Saturday instead of Sunday as the day of rest." Alphons Bellesheim "History of the Catholic church in Scotland Edinburg 1887 Vol 1 p. 250

Re: Is it true St. Patrick kept the 7th Day Sabbath! [Re: Rick H] #186387
04/08/18 06:23 PM
04/08/18 06:23 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

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Posts: 25,133
Nova Scotia, Canada
What I am really looking for is unbiased sources that tell us about St. Patrick and his relationship to early Celtic Christianity, his relationship to the Sabbath, and his relationship, if any, to the Roman Catholic church.

I am hoping that the sources given so far are from as much as possible unbiased sources

Why am I so interested in unbiased sources? For the reason that there are obviously sources out there that presents contradictory information.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Is it true St. Patrick kept the 7th Day Sabbath! [Re: dedication] #188400
01/30/19 11:12 AM
01/30/19 11:12 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,249
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: dedication
The Roman Church claimed Patrick as one of them, thus you will see false claims, but history tells a different story.
There is no evidence that Patrick ever received any papal blessing, in fact history shows the opposite.

The history of Patrick and the Celtic Church

//

I think they would have tried bringing in or enforcing Sunday worship at the least.

Last edited by Rick H; 01/30/19 11:12 AM.
Re: Is it true St. Patrick kept the 7th Day Sabbath! [Re: Daryl] #188407
01/30/19 06:51 PM
01/30/19 06:51 PM
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Nadi  Offline
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Posts: 288
Canada
Originally Posted By: Daryl
How can we determine between true and false history in relation to this, and even in relation to other things similar to this?
One way to determine the reliability of a "fact" or statement is to recognize and evaluate the bias of the author or poster. Everyone has a bias, but not everyone recognizes their own bias or knows how to minimise their manipulation of the evidence. Some even go so far as to intentionally obscure or manipulate the source material to fit their bias.

Too many people are more blinded by what they think they know than by their lack of knowledge.

Last edited by Nadi; 01/30/19 06:55 PM.

"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: Is it true St. Patrick kept the 7th Day Sabbath! [Re: Rick H] #193129
10/17/20 12:20 AM
10/17/20 12:20 AM
dedication  Online Content
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History of the Sabbath -- Part 5
Patrick a Sabbath keeper in Ireland


Also Christian Edwardson, (1873-1944) Did the following research and published it in his book "Facts of Faith" Pages 135-137.

Originally Posted by Christian Edwardson


The Coming Of Patrick

Patrick, a son of a Christian family in southern Scotland, was carried off to Ireland by pirates about 376 A. D. Here, in slavery, he gave his heart to God and, after six years of servitude, escaped, returning to his home in Scotland. But he could not forget the spiritual need of these poor heathen, and after ten years he returned to Ireland as a missionary of the Celtic
135
church. "He had now reached his thirtieth year [390 A. D]." - "The Ancient British and Irish Churches," William Cathcart, D. D., p. 70. {1943 CE, FAFA 134.4}
Dr. E. Pagit says that "Saint Patrick had in his day founded there 365 churches." - "Christianography," Part 2, p.10.

Dr. August Neander says of Patrick:
"The place of his birth was Bonnaven, which lay between the Scottish towns Dumbarton and Glasgow, and was then reckoned to the province of Britain. This village, in memory of Patricius, received the name of Kil-Patrick or Kirk-Patrick. His father, a deacon in the village church, gave him a careful education." - "General History of the Christian Religion and Church," Vol. II, p. 122. Boston: 1855.

Patrick himself writes in his "Confession":
"I, Patrick, . . . had Calpornius for my father, a deacon, a son of the late Potitus, the presbyter. . . . I was captured. I was almost sixteen years of age . . . and taken to Ireland in captivity with many thousand men." - "The Ancient British and Irish Churches," William Cathcart, D. D., p. 127.


Patrick Not A Catholic


To those who have heard of Patrick only as a Catholic saint, it may be a surprise to learn that he was not a Roman Catholic at all, but that he was a member of the original Celtic church. There is no more historic evidence for Patrick's being a Roman Catholic saint, than for Peter's being the first pope. Catholics claim that Pope Celestine commissioned Patrick as a Roman Catholic missionary to Ireland; but William Cathcart, D. D., says: {1943 CE, FAFA 135.5}
"There is strong evidence that Patrick had no Roman commission in Ireland."

"As Patrick's churches in Ireland, like their brethren in Britain, repudiated the supremacy of the popes, all knowledge of the conversion of Ireland through his ministry must be suppressed [by Rome, at all cost.]" - Id., p. 85.

The popes who lived contemporary with Patrick never mentioned him. "There is not a written word from one of them rejoicing over Patrick's additions to their church, showing clearly that he was not a Roman missionary. . . . So completely buried was Patrick and his work by popes and other Roman Catholics, that in their epistles and larger publications, his name does not once occur in one of them until A. D. 634." - Id., p. 83.

"Prosper does not notice Patrick. . . . He says nothing of the greatest success ever given to a missionary of Christ, apparently because he was not a Romanist." - Id., p. 84.

"Bede never speaks of St. Patrick in his celebrated 'Ecclesiastical History.'" - Id., p. 85.
But, writing of the year 431, Bede says of a Catholic missionary: "Palladius was sent by Celestinus, the Roman pontiff, to the Scots [Irish] that believed in Christ." - "Ecclesiastical History," p. 22. London: 1894.

But this papal emissary was not received any more favorably by the church in Ireland, than was Augustine later received by the Celtic church of Scotland, for "he left because he did not receive respect in Ireland." - "The Ancient British and Irish Churches," William Cathcart, D. D., p. 72.


No Roman Catholic church would have dared to ignore a bishop sent them by the pope. This proves that the churches in the British Isles did not recognize the pope.

Dr. Todd says:
"The 'Confession' of St. Patrick contains not a word of a mission from Pope Celestine. One object of the writer was to defend himself from the charge of presumption in having undertaken such a work as the conversion of the Irish, rude and unlearned as he was. Had he received a regular commission from the see of Rome, that fact alone would be an unanswerable reply. But he makes no mention of Pope Celestine, and rests his defense altogether on the divine call which he believed himself to have received for his work." - Id., pp. 81, 82.

137
"Muirchu wrote more than two hundred years after Patrick's death. His declaration is positive that he did not go to Rome." - Id., p. 88.

There are three reasons why Patrick could not have been a Roman Catholic missionary:
1. Early Catholic historians and popes avoided mentioning Patrick or his work; until later legendary histories represented him as a Catholic Saint. 15
2. When papal missionaries arrived in Britain, 596 A. D., the leaders of the original Celtic church refused to accept their doctrines, or to acknowledge the papal authority, and would not dine with them. (Compare 1 Corinthians 5: 11; 2 John 8-11) They "acted towards the Roman party exactly 'as if they had been pagans.'" - "Ecclesiastical Records," by Richard Hart, pp. viii, xiv.
3. The doctrines of the Celtic church of Patrick's day differed so widely from those of the Roman church, that the latter could not have accepted it as "Catholic." Patrick must have been a Sabbath-keeper, because the churches he established in Ireland, as well as the mother church in Scotland and England, followed the apostolic practice of keeping the seventh day Sabbath, and of working on Sunday, as we soon shall see. But this was considered deadly heresy by the Papacy.


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