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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#193356
12/17/20 03:15 PM
12/17/20 03:15 PM
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OP
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The texts (Rev. 9:12 and 11:14) may seem like historical events of the threefold woes.
"One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter" (Rev. 9:12), and "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly" (Rev. 11:14).
Nevertheless, we must consider Rev. 8:13 to perceive the woes that "by reason of the other voices...which are yet to sound." In other words, the sounding of the last three trumpets has to be understood as background of "One woe is past."
If I were to combine the reading of Rev 9:12 with 8:13, it should say, "One woe of the sounding is finished, and two more woes will be sounded right now."
" And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"
The word 'past' in Greek (ἀπῆλθεν) does not mean historical event, but it means 'to go away' or 'passed.'
I suggest that the threefold woes, as well as the first four, are the warnings of the coming wrath of God in the seven last plagues. God sends warning prior to executing His judgment. See Amos 3:7.
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#193368
12/27/20 05:30 PM
12/27/20 05:30 PM
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The Feast of Trumpet was a longest among the other Feast of the OT.
The Feast of Unleavened-Bread was for seven days. The Feast of Tabernacle was for eight days.
The Feast of Trumpet was for nine days.
One of the angel which had the seven vials of the seven last plagues talked with Apostle John in Rev. 17 (see v. 1 and v. 7).
God gives command to the seven angels to pour out the plague vials in Rev. 16:1: "...God your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."
One of the four beasts(=living-creatures by the throne of God; see Rev. 4) gave the vials of the wrath of God to the seven angels.
These seven angels are those who received the seven trumpets while they stand before the throne and watching Jesus' intercession for the humanity until He finishes it and cast fire of the altar into the earth (see Rev. 8:5).
The seven angels are very much involved with the intercession ever since Jesus ascended to heaven until it is done. Then they change their action to pour out the seven last plagues. We don't find that they sound the seven trumpets.
The sounding of the trumpets are done by God's people just as the three angel messages sounded (See 14:6-7). Rev. 8:13 "And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"
Please notice the similar expression in Rev. 14:6-7; "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#193400
01/06/21 10:31 PM
01/06/21 10:31 PM
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At the sound of the sixth trumpet, the four angels were loosed: "Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose THE FOUR ANGELS which are bound in the great river Euphrates" (Rev. 9:14). (emphasis added).
The four angels are the four living creatures, which evidenced by Rev. 7:1-3 and Rev. 15:7.
"And after these things I saw FOUR ANGELS standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads" (Rev. 7:1-3). (emphasis added)
"And one of THE FOUR BEASTS gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever" (Rev. 15:7). (emphasis added)
The fact that THE FOUR BEASTS gave the seven last plague bowls to the seven angels who were standing before the throne of God and observing Jesus' intercession(Rev. 8:2) indicates that they are THE FOUR ANGELS of Rev. 7:1-3.
Keep in mind that the four angels are holding the four winds until the sealing of God is complete, then they will loose the holding for the wrath of God to be poured out as indicated in Rev. 15:7.
The sixth trumpet is precisely talking of THE FOUR ANGELS (four beasts) task which signifies the urgent warning of the close of probation. Notice that a voice came from the sanctuary commanding them to loose their hold, which is the voice of God.
Rev. 9:13 "And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from THE FOUR HORNS of the golden altar which is before God" (emphasis added)
Notice also, "Loose the four angels" (Rev. 9:14) has the definite article which points to "four angels" of Rev. 7:1.
Rev. 7:1 "And after these things I saw FOUR ANGELS standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree." (emphasis added).
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#193416
01/12/21 01:49 PM
01/12/21 01:49 PM
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OP
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The task of the four angels of Rev. 7 are holding the winds for the work of the sealing of God.
When the sealing is complete, God commands the four angels to loose their hold. Rev. 9:13-14 "And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates."
The voice from the four horns of the golden altar indicates that it is the voice of God from the temple. God commands them them to "Loose" their hold. Then, what's next?
Revelation unfolds that whirlwinds will blow to hurt "the earth, the sea, and the trees," which signifies evil powers of the seven last plagues. Jer. 25:32 "Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth."
I believe that the wind of Rev. 7 signifies of the seven last plagues, and it has no indication of wars and strifes as many assume. Keep this in mind that the four angels, the four living-creatures, are holding the winds. When God commands them to loose their hold, one of the four angels give the vials of the seven plagues to the seven angels of Rev. 15:1.
Rev. 15:1 "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."
Rev. 15:7 "And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever."
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#193430
01/14/21 11:17 AM
01/14/21 11:17 AM
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After the saints have been sealed, the four angels of Rev. 7:3 are released by the command of the temple: "Loose the four angels" (Rev. 9:14). The four angels of Rev. 7:1-3 are involved with the forces of destruction: "power to harm the land or the sea."
Notice that the one of the four beasts-the four angels of Rev. 7:1-3, giving the golden vials of Rev. 8:3-5 to the seven angels, which are the seven last plague bowls.
The golden vials contain "the prayers of saints." "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints (Rev. 5:8)."
The prayers went up to the throne of God in a golden censer and the mediating angel which is Christ Jesus intercedes behalf of the saints. When the sealing of God is complete, the fire of the golden altar will be cast down to the earth. Prayers went up from the earth, and it will be cast down back to the earth as the seven last plagues if the subjects of prayers reject God's grace.
A command comes from the temple(God's command), and the four angels loose their hold by giving the plague vials to the seven trumpet angels who stood before the throne and observed Jesus' intercession until He declares "It is done."
The seven trumpet angels are told to pour out the seven last plagues: "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth (Rev. 16:1).
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#193584
01/30/21 08:28 AM
01/30/21 08:28 AM
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In God's sovereignty, the four angels who we can identify them as the same being as the four living creatures will release their hold of the four corners of the earth. Then the wind begins to blow upon the earth. Notice that the one of the four living creatures gives the golden bowl to the seven angels to pour out the seven last plagues.
Rev. 15:7 "Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever."
Many assume that the wind signifies strifes and wars, but how can that be when there has been numerous wars have occurred in the past. Did the wind sipped out between the fingers of the four angels, so to say? It is God's command to hold the wind (Rev. 7:1-3) and it was God's command to release the wind (Rev. 9:13-15).
If the holding of the wind signifies strifes and wars of this world, it means we are condoning the Pope's claim as the peace-maker the world. He certainly is not controlling the time of the sealing.
God is in control. The world history is not depended on the men's war or strifes. The sealing of God's people is the work of divine. The sixth trumpet is the most elaborated description of the closing scene of probation for the humanity, which fits the introductory scene of the seven trumpets in Rev. 8:3-5.
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#193617
02/01/21 11:35 AM
02/01/21 11:35 AM
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OP
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Notice that the four angels of punishment are made ready or prepared by the command to hold the four winds of the four corners of the earth until the sealing of God is complete. (See Rev. 7:1-3 and 9:15).
In Rev. 9:15, the four angels had been ?ἡτοιμασμένοι? "prepared" by God "for this very hour and day and month and year." In Greek, a perfect participle in a past tense context often has pluperfect force, "had been made ready."
This verse emphasizes on divine sovereignty just as a similar divinely chosen moment is indicated in Rev. 6:11 that the martyred saints were told to wait until their fellow-servants fill the number.
Another moment that God had chosen to "avenge their blood" will happen at the second coming: "...He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her" and "for God has avenged you on her!" (Rev. 19:2 and 18:20).
It is clear that the four-time designations (the hour and day and month and year) are connected by a single article, showing they, all relate to the exact moment God has set. Another clue is that they are in ascending order (hour-day-month-year) to highlight this specific point of time.
A prominent feature of apocalyptic is God's precise determination of the exact time for the end.
In Rev. 9:14, the purpose of the releasing the four angels is to "kill a third of humankind" which parallels with Rev. 7:3 that the four angels who had "power to harm the land or the sea" were restrained "until we have put a seal on the foreheads of God's slaves." The saints have now been sealed, and it is time to "release" the forces of destruction.
When it says "a third of mankind," it indicates that it is only God's prerogative to keep the number of the dead to exact a third of humankind. John points to the prophetic word by saying "I heard the number of them," otherwise, he does not normally state such things for he is not making up the detail. Notice that John said the same wording regarding to 144,000 as well, "I heard the number of them"(Rev. 7:4).
?ἡτοιμασμένοι?
Last edited by Green Cochoa; 02/01/21 03:57 PM. Reason: Last edited by Karen Y; 02/01/21 10:43 PM. Reason: to correct the broken print of Greek letters; Edited by Green Cochoa to enable HTML in post
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#193656
02/04/21 10:22 AM
02/04/21 10:22 AM
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Notice that the four angels of punishment are made ready or prepared by the command to hold the four winds of the four corners of the earth until the sealing of God is complete. (See Rev. 7:1-3 and 9:15).
In Rev. 9:15, the four angels had been ...... "prepared" by God "for this very hour and day and month and year." In Greek, a perfect participle in a past tense context often has pluperfect force, "had been made ready."
This verse emphasizes on divine sovereignty just as a similar divinely chosen moment is indicated in Rev. 6:11 that the martyred saints were told to wait until their fellow-servants fill the number.
Another moment that God had chosen to "avenge their blood" will happen at the second coming: "...He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her" and "for God has avenged you on her!" (Rev. 19:2 and 18:20).
It is clear that the four-time designations (the hour and day and month and year) are connected by a single article, showing they, all relate to the exact moment God has set. Another clue is that they are in ascending order (hour-day-month-year) to highlight this specific point of time.
A prominent feature of apocalyptic is God's precise determination of the exact time for the end.
In Rev. 9:14, the purpose of the releasing the four angels is to "kill a third of humankind" which parallels with Rev. 7:3 that the four angels who had "power to harm the land or the sea" were restrained "until we have put a seal on the foreheads of God's slaves." The saints have now been sealed, and it is time to "release" the forces of destruction.
When it says "a third of mankind," it indicates that it is only God's prerogative to keep the number of the dead to exact a third of humankind. John points to the prophetic word by saying "I heard the number of them," otherwise, he does not normally state such things for he is not making up the detail. Notice that John said the same wording regarding to 144,000 as well, "I heard the number of them"(Rev. 7:4).
What most people miss is that in Rev 9:15, the four winds are loosed at the River Euphrates, and this was the spread of Muhammadism (Islam) through the Western Roman Empire like a plague on the Papacy. Then in Rev 7, we see the four winds held by the four angels just before the sealing of the 144,000, which is most definitely an end-time event. Mrs. White saw the holding of the four winds just before the sealing of the 144,000 in a vision also. So, connecting the two events, when was Islam permitted to attack the main end-time entity in Revelation? The Lamb-like beast, the United States, was attacked by radical Islamists on 9/11/2001, just a few weeks after the Lutheran Protestant church reached its hand across the abyss and clasped hands with the Papacy when signing the Joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification, in effect refuting their fundamental beliefs. It was originally signed in 1999 in New York City on Manhattan Island which Mrs White also had several visions of the destruction of "tall buildings reaching story after story unto heaven" being thrown down "as if made of pitch". This agreement was ratified weeks prior to 9/11. Then the winds were held and the 144,000 are being sealed ever since that day.
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#193658
02/04/21 01:35 PM
02/04/21 01:35 PM
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OP
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts on Rev. 9:15.
The reference of the River Euphrates is in Gen. 15:18. " In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates" (Gen. 15:18). The significance of the river Euphrates is involved with a concept of the end borderline. Notice also that the fourth river in the Garden of Eden was Euphrates (Gen. 2:14).
Yes, I agree that the sixth trumpet is "plagues," which we find in the following verse 20, chapter 9: "And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk."
It seems implausible to connect "these plagues" to the fall on "the Western Roman Empire like a plague on the Papacy," as you have stated above. I want to be very careful in the interpretation so that it wouldn't be a "private interpretation" ( 2Pet.1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.").
One thing is very sure that the backdrop of Revelation is the sanctuary. Therefore, Revelation's interpretation must line up with the sanctuary of the OT. I do not believe the history of Muhammadism (Islam) or the attack by radical Islamists on 9/11/2001 fits the pattern of the sanctuary.
However, "a voice from the four horns of the golden altar" before God has a nuance that is the heavenly sanctuary (Rev. 9:13), and it is the voice of the Father God responding to Jesus's mediation. Confidently, I can say that it is God's bidding to lose the four angels of Rev. 7:1-3 when it says, "Loose the four angels" at the end-time, the time of close of probation. In other words, the four angels will lose their hold at the consummation of Jesus's second coming, which the river Euphrates conveys the meaning of the end boundary.
If God commanded Islam to kill "one third of men" on the earth (Rev. 9:15, 18) in a moment, can we find any historical fact on that matter? Some believe the movement of Islam took 391 years to kill humankind. It seems to me, this class of thought brings more problems to the biblical exposition.
The sixth trumpet is about the imminent close of probation in the backdrop of the sanctuary, as with all of the other trumpets. Rev. 8:13 "And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#193691
02/09/21 08:11 AM
02/09/21 08:11 AM
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OP
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In Rev. 7:1-3, there is a command, not "to hurt the earth and the sea" until the eschatological sealing work is complete.
There should be a significant connection when we find a hurting of the earth and the sea appear in Revelation. In light of this, the first and the second trumpet angels announce the precise warning: "The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed" (Rev. 8:7-9).
It grips my attention that the trumpet angels are warning about the hurt of the earth and the sea. The fulfillment of the hurting trees and grass of Rev. 7:1-3 is undoubtedly apparent here with the angelic warning of the trees, and all green grass "was burnt up," and the sea became deadly.
Rev. 7:1-3 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."
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