One of the aspects of Christianity is the promise of God to come and dwell in us, give us the Fruits of the Spirit, and create a new person from the old.

So my question is "Who has experienced a change of life, who experiences the Spirit within, and what is the Presence of Christ like in your life?"

The reason for asking is that I see very little evidence for God's power in people's lives, either mine or anyone else's, and especially not in the lives of those who make the strongest claims to the Spirit, and not at all in any kind of church leadership or management.

So I would like to explore this question, because this is one of the key reasons I have moved away from Christianity.

If you can discuss this in a kind and loving way, understanding that that I am seriously looking for answers here, you are welcome and please help me out.

If you can't...well, that just proves my point.

I think the problem we all have and tend to fall into, is that we all have a very natural tendency to look too much for fruit. Realizing the fruit of the Spirit is a good thing, we try to "grow some". We try to "grow fruit" thinking we have to prove ourselves to God that we are changing.
I fully agree that trying to "grow fruit" is doomed to failure as long as we see it from the "self" side.
The natural self does make a mess of Christianity. No wonder scripture says -- "Lean not unto thine own understanding but in all thy ways acknowledge Him."


Somehow we first have to fall in love with our Savior -- the One who loved us so much He was willing to die a horrible death in order to be able to forgive, cleanse and bring us home like an adoring groom brings home his bride and there is wonderful love and total commitment in love.

By beholding Him we become changed into being more like Him.
He is not like some false friend. There are no wild fruits in Him. He has all the noble "fruits" of love and righteousness fully manifested in His character. The closer we come to know Him, the more we see ourselves as having serious problems. But when we know His thoughts toward us are thoughts of goodness, love, encouragement and a tender patient love to lift us out of sin, we just cling to Him all the more, surrendering self daily, and asking Him to lead us and teach us!

By faith we need to meditate on Him, getting clearer glimpses of Him through scripture.
It's a growth process, but that growth is a growth in our love for Him and in our trust that He wants the best for us. It's a learning to give our concerns and problems into His hands.


And yes, He does work with His children -- nudging them into the right paths.
Step by patient loving step, if we are willing and longing to follow His leading, He works to lead us ever closer to Him and to root out bitterness, hate and strife and replace it with love and goodness.

Its not something that happens instantly, which is a idea many people expect, but it is over time. The character has a transformation through the power of the Holy Spirit and there is realization of our place before God, and how unworthy we are before Christ, like Peter..

Luke 5:7-9 King James Version (KJV)

7 And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink.
8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.
9 For he was astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken:

I needed a stroke and major heart attack to humble me to where I could change, and let me tell you that makes you take a hard look at self and turn your life more completely to Christ and for me what I can only call a deep peace and love for others and a loss of fear of the coming challenges and troubles, and I am still being surprised and like Peter 'astonished'..

The way I see it, the Fruits of the Spirit are a result of the Holy Spirit in your life. No Fruit---No Spirit. Why would God NOT give his spirit to someone who asks for it? The lack of fruit is not just in my life, I see it in virtually every "Christian" I have encountered. I have also met it in pastors, church boards, conference leaders, (especially the current crop of hooligans in AB) union leaders, right up to the current prez TW.

The church is universally run for the benefit of the leaders, not for the spreading of the gospel or the love of God. And yes, I have been a part of all the levels mentioned. And no, I am NOT looking for perfection. We are humans, and humans sin and make mistakes. While all have sinned, this is not the same as all are evil; most leadership is evil, and the rest lack both backbone and testicle.

If this is "God in control" I'm not really interested. And if God is in control in the next world like he's in control here, I'm really not interested.

And as far as "falling in love" with God, that would work if God actually responded and showed some life and or personal interest. My experience so far has been that God has shown the response of an inflatable doll...

Bottom line is that none of the things I read in Scripture or learned about God, his Omniscience, his Omnipresence, his Omnipotence, his Love, stack up against my reality; Christian/SDA teaching says one thing, and the real world is totally different. Stop fooling yourself; God Doesn't Act.

But the real clincher for me is that I have seen no change in MY PERSONAL LIFE. The sins I struggled with at 7 and 8 and 21 and 35 I still struggle with at 60. The constant anxiety is still with me. If God cannot or will not give me peace in my heart, I have no use for a weak god like that. I get more peace from a couple cold beers than from this "all powerful" god.

So at this point god is going to have to act in a REALLY SPECTACULAR WAY for me to go back to that dead thought pattern.

In a way I can understand the frustration.
Right now many Christians are in shock over the Ravi Zacharia's scandal.
I remember a few years back he was preaching on the radio every morning at the time I was driving to work, and I thought he was a "man of God", his sermons were good. Now we hear he lived a double life-- one side a very dark side, the other side a preacher of the scriptures. How can this be???
How can someone be so versed in scripture and yet engage in so much darkness?

The answer, in the limited way that I understand it, is that this world is under the control in a large measure by someone else. Someone usurped the dominion of this earth from Adam way back when the earth was in it's infancy. This fallen angel is a destroyer and ruiner of the noble characteristics God first created in human beings.

Now I don't know what you believe, yet I do know someone who seemed to be your friend, was very much opposed to the idea of the great controversy between Christ and His angels, and the devil and his angels, that is now raging upon this earth. Yet, it is really the only understanding that makes sense in this turmoil we find in the world.
1Peter 5:8 "our adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: "

And sadly that adversary finds fertile ground in the hearts of human beings--
scripture tells us in Jere. 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
When we see things from that perspective, we realize just how much God does for us-- there is still a lot of goodness in the world by the grace of God! Without HIM this world would be even darker, and possibly have self destructed long ago.

We really have two strikes against us --
1. a very aggressive adversary that throws all kinds of temptations in our way and tries to enshroud us in his darkness and ruin.
2. Our own sinful deceitful hearts that tend to respond to sin, and then deceive us, so we think we need to keep doing it.

There is only one way out -- and that is through Jesus Christ our Redeemer and Savior. He is the Light that drives away the darkness.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
1:19 If ye be willing and obedient.

Come -- come to the LORD, and talk with Him! Tell him you want to be rid of the sins that bind you.
You are willing to let go.
Repent and claim His forgiveness -- WHITE as new snow! Believe it! That's the hardest part, believing ones sins are gone, forgiven, clean. Believe He has made you white as snow.
Stand tall knowing you are a child of God, washed, clean.

Now -- like a person who just received beautiful new clothes, one doesn't want to get them dirty again.
It's easier to resist "dirt" when one is clean! God says, "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins." 1 John 1:9 Believe it.
And just like the woman in adultery. Jesus says, I don't condemn you, go and sin no more.
Forgiven, means condemnation is lifted, it's gone. Now forsake the sin.

A prayer I have often prayed:
"Create in me a clean heart oh God, and renew a right spirit in me." "Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow." Psalm 51:10,7

The next step is "replacement".
Scripture tells of a house that is swept clean, but remains empty, and the demon, that was cast out, returns and finds it empty and invites seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state]of that man is worse than the first. see Matt. 12:45

For me, personally, I like music. and filling the mind with good spiritual songs helps.
Get rid (as much as possible) of the things that case a fall.
Then fill the empty space with good things that edify and uplift.

Pilippians 4:8 whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God.
Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.
Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify [your] hearts,

I made a plaque of that verse for myself some years ago, and posted it where I could see it often.

Submit to God -- If we've given our lives to the Lord, and temptation comes, the Holy Spirit does give us a prompt, (don't do this) we can easily push that little prompt aside and go ahead anyway, OR we can submit and resist the devil. Call upon the Lord and the devil will flee.
Draw near to God, fill the mind and thoughts with heavenly things.

It's not easy -- it's actually a warfare, with evil constantly trying to knock a person down, and scripture telling us to put on the full armor of God so we can stand. But if knocked down, (which happens) don't stay down, get up and cling more firmly to Christ. And don't expect to reach a time when one can let their guard down and think the sin is licked. The devil will take advantage of that, and then taunt you as a failure hoping to keep you down.

Fortify the mind with God's promises --
He doesn't promise us a rose garden here. Jesus told us that in this life we will have afflictions
John 16:33 "In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."
There is peace, wonderful peace in a heart that connected with Christ,
I pray you will find that peace.


God does care, and He will act!
Even though the forces of evil are seeking to take over the whole world and are being allowed to show the horrendous results of sin, God will act in a tremendous way.
In the end sin will be banished.

This world is not our home
We're just a traveling through
Remember Christ wins the war
And with Him are the ones who responded to His call
Sadly there are many in this world that only wear religion as a cloak to hide their darkness.
But like the Lord told Elijah when he thought he alone was left, God told him there were yet thousands who were still faithful.



BLESSINGS

Nadi,

I shared your posts with my wife and this is her response in her own typed out words to your post:

It's not my place to condemn you or preach to you. You don't need that.

Somewhere along the way you became discouraged and that's OK. We all go through dark seasons. The point is not to stay there too long. We all experience doubt and we are sometimes so afraid to express our doubt that we will be preached at or criticized by others.

You know the Lord is merciful to those who doubt in Jude 1:22.

Man, you're right if we put our whole focus on church leadership we may be disappointed. Even Jesus in His day was plain disgusted with the leadership and in Revelation it says that He is sick of pretenders and wants to vomit them out of His mouth.

"How precious are your thoughts to me O God! How great is the sum of them!" Psalms 139:17

Thank you for your honesty.

Can we be your friends?

Nadi, I am likely not the person you want to hear from at this point. The truth is that, some time ago, with the best of intentions (with which the road to hell is paved), thinking that I was somehow protecting the flock, I attacked and insulted you. You would not be wrong to group me with the pastors, church boards, conference leaders, hooligans in AB, union leaders, right up to the current prez TW. Although, no one in their right mind would entrust any sort of authority to me. Satan and my own ego have been my masters far more often than Christ.

After our "interaction", I left Maritime, and spent months bitterly contemplating the betrayal I felt had been inflicted on me by members, I thought had my back. I even requested Daryl to delete my membership. Fortunately, he did not. In the end, I came to realize that as usual, I had not only lashed out at others, but at myself. The greatest paradox of sin, other than its tenacious repetitive nature, seems to be that the worst wounds inflicted are upon the self.

I am so very sorry for my hurtful, cruel, words Nadi. Pushing sixty, and still I am a trembling shoot when I should long ago have matured into a fruitful tree. Please, forgive me.


True, faithful, fruitful Christians have always been few and far between, while the world is filled to overflowing with callous, arrogant, worms like me. Nadi, I beg of you, please do not lay our failures, do not lay my self righteous cruelty, upon the only One who suffered, who bled, who cried out in agony for you. My brother, in your pain, He is crying out for you still.


"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings."

Julius Caesar

There is also the old saying, "Treat others as you yourself would like to be treated."

This also reminds me of a Bible text that says in Luke 6:31 that says, "And as you would that men should do to you, do you also to them likewise."

There is also this one found in Matthew 6:12 that says in the International Standard Version, "and forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who have sinned against us."

There is also a song that some or many of us may remember which contains the words, "They will know we are Christians by our love, by our love. They will know that we are Christians by our love."

If we were all to do this from the person sitting in the church pew to the person speaking behind the pulpit, what a better place things would be in our churches, and consequently also in this world, in comparison to what it is now.

I am well aware that this is easier said than done, and without Christ being truly living in us, it is the next thing to impossible to being done.

And just because there are many who do not do any of the above and yet are in the church sitting in our church pews, speaking behind the pulpit, etc. doesn't mean that Christ and Christianity isn't real and doesn't like or even love us, but is part of the evidence that He really is present, that He really does care, does like, does love us. It means that, either the devil has successfully placed a lot of tares in the church from sitting in the church pews to speaking behind the pulpit, or that there are a lot of people in those positions who need to be truly transformed by the renewing of their minds,

I am far from being where I want to be in my relationship with Christ and in my relationship with others, which is why I pray daily for God to create in me a clean heart and to renew a right spirit in me, and to transform me into His likeness.

I am also learning in my life experiences to not look at others, but to look at Christ as the only perfect Example. Others will let me down by their actions, but Christ will never let me down by His actions.

I had better stop here, as I am beginning to feel that I am beginning to preach a sermon to both myself and to others.

Interesting responses from interesting people.
I did notice, however, that all responses avoided the crucial question in the OP. Perhaps I have not been clear with the question. I'll try again.

Does God change lives? When you "surrendered to God" or "accepted Jesus" or "Asked God to take control of your life" (all of which, by the way, I have done multiple times over) did you experience a "presence of God" in your life? Did you, and or Do you, feel God's presence and participation in your life each day? Does he give you a "calm assurance" (whatever that means) that he is with you, helping you, daily.

When you come to a decision point in your life (large or small) and you bring the matter to God in prayer, what do you get for an answer? and how is that answer relayed? Does he speak to you in words you can hear? "Nadi, this is the right path for you." Or does he give you a dream, where someone or something comes to you with instructions? Or a vision or trance where God gives direction?

To say that God will answer your prayers with Yes, No or Wait, or to say that "In the end it all worked out" is to set the bar at the lowest possible level for an All-Knowing, All-Powerful, All-Loving God. For the intelligent, thinking person, it is no bar at all. Humanity sets the bar for other humans much higher. So this God is unable to render a clear, unmistakable answer.

The real point, however, is that I have never experienced any of the events mentioned above. No presence of God. No assurance of his care. No clear answers to my life predicaments or direction seeking. And I have never encountered anyone who displays such characteristics. The very fact that some of you are apologizing for behaviors indicates that you haven't either. And the fact that none of you have admitted to Gods clear presence, voice and direction also indicates he doesn't act.

And if you do say you have experienced such there are only two possibilities:
1. You're lying.
2. God favors some people over others.

I must also add that it is largely from my time on this forum, under various user names, that I recognized that God is neither in my life nor in any of the forum members lives. I cannot speak for you, but I have AGONIZED over having God's spirit, fasted and prayed, read Scripture, pleaded in prayer....all to a deaf and uncaring God.

Now, none of this bothers me anymore. You all keep up the in-fighting, the defense of a weak and unresponsive God, the squabbling about "false doctrines" and "Sunday Laws" and "Mark of the Beast" and all the other stuff I used to take such interest in.

Not that I'm any better that you.

I just don't care....

So what you're saying is this is my fault.
No problem. I accept responsibility for my actions.


Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

"Invictus"

William Ernest Henley - 1849-1903