This is actually a good point to be made; in the midst of all our confusion, The Holy Spirit inspires praise to Christ.

I will only remark briefly on the anti-trinity sentiments in this topic, as they really belong in a different section of the forum meant for that purpose, and I will go to that section when I can to expand more on that point.

Basically, I have seen one, particular concern, on multiple web sites regarding John 14:6, and it is in light of the general tone of said comments, sometimes on this site, and on other ones that I wanted to comment about because it is an important and central point to understanding the topic of "the trinity."

John 14:6 is a beautiful text, full of instruction and guidance for God's people. There we see, in writing, that the way to salvation is through Jesus alone. WE have this hope!! The LOCUS of The Holy Spirit, does not take away anything from this powerful text, as the whole part and parcel of The Spirit's ministry has very little to do with keeping us all in 100% agreement on the physical Substance of Deity, because The Spirit's role, and His power, and His leading, is all designed to lead to Jesus, to point to Him as "The Way," and we could have no better Advocate, in our hearts, than The Holy Spirit, to bring home the salvation truth of "in Christ." There would be no gospel message if it wasn't for Jesus. Unfortunately, when we try to say things like "the Spirit is a possession" that we can all obtain; then we are circumventing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Why would we need "The Holy Spirit" if that was just a possession? When Jesus said that no one can come to The Father; except by Him," was He talking about through His physical Substance, or was He talking about the LOCUS of trinity, and His sacrifice on Calvary, because that is what our gospel message is about?

When we say that we access The Father through Christ, it is The Spirit who informs and empowers us in that direction. "Through Christ" means, through His astounding VICTORY "Through Jesus", means because of Calvary, and "by His shed blood." This can be shown when we let scripture interpret scripture, and if there was ever a subject where we should do that; it would be this one:

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." (Eph 2:13), so it is clear that "the blood of Christ" is the context by which we have access to The Father; and with Jesus now "at the right hand" of God, (Heb 10:12 says Jesus 'forever, sat down at the right hand of God,' and forever means forever, so how do we access The Father, THROUGH Christ??), and we are left with The Spirit, in His express capacity of leading us to Calvary.

1 Pet 1:19 reinforces this view, by telling us emphatically, we are redeemed "with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:" Truly, EGW knew what she was talking about when she said "there is one central truth in study of the Scriptures: 'Christ, and Him crucified.' All other truths are invested with power & influence, ACCORDING TO THEIR RELATION TO THIS THEME." ?

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8. {FLB 50.1} There is one great central truth to be kept ever before the mind in the searching of the Scriptures--Christ and Him crucified. Every other truth is invested with influence and power corresponding to its relation to this theme. . . . The soul palsied by sin can be endowed with life only through the work wrought out upon the cross by the Author of our salvation. {FLB 50.2}

And so, when we are talking about how we access God The Father; and we say "only through Christ," then we say, "by His blood." Not meaning that we have to physically stand in front of Him to access God! Can we relate our understanding of any part of "the message" to THIS theme? Is our doctrine related to this "blood of Christ," or are we pedalling our latest come-backs about the physical Substance of Deity?

I cannot imagine The Holy Spirit being simply relegated as a possession.

IF The Spirit could be proven to simply be a "possession" then The Psalmist really needs to learn how to pray!



Just as God, as in God The Father, God The Son, and God The Spirit existed from eternity in fellowship and activities together, (as seen in Creation week), we, the human agents of His salvation, were created in "His image" which has nothing to do with the physical Substance of Deity; but everything to do with God's chosen method/s of relationship to us, through Jesus, through The Spirit, who are "ONE" "by the blood of Christ." The shed blood is what trinity is "ONE" about.

Jesus defined the unpardonable sin as "'blasphemy against the Holy Spirit," NEVER was this said about Jesus, or The Father!

"'Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come'" (Mat 12:31-32). This could be true only if the Holy Spirit is God." IF The Holy Spirit was not God, then there would be no blasphemy involved. Mark 12:31 is very specific in making a particular distinction between "The Son of man, [Jesus], and The Holy Spirit. Definitely TWO distinct Personalities there.

The Holy Spirit is equally distinct from The Son and The Father, but only on the basis of a declared LOCUS of His activities throughout all time and places where The Spirit is mentioned, in scripture. All THREE are of the same Substance; and just because that is something we cannot understand, it does not follow that it is somehow not true. Scripture declares this and other things, and offers no proof for them at all! So that cannot be used as an excuse to deny the truth. We believe in the resurrection, for example, and there is very little evidence or description about HOW thats actually going to happen; it defies all known laws of physics and biology yet we call it an essential truth, as does the Bible. It is on this same basis we can assume from brief statements in scripture on The Holy Spirit, that God said it that way because its right. God would not tell us that Jesus did everything "THROUGH THE ETERNAL SPIRIT, (Heb 9:14), and then retract that a few verses later! Its ludicrous to even suggest that! I see The Holy Spirit of Scripture as not having a physical Substance that we can define, and scripture doent do that! The Bible, while at times briefly declaring something about Substance of Deity, does NOT in fact make distinctions in the physical Substance of any of The Three, only in their implicated or express LOCUS throughout Bible history. Deity must not ever be circumscribed by double-blind statements of grammar, or human understandings or interpretations. Deity cannot be bound by human ideas of "person," and we have no business to keep forcing scripture to fit that agenda.

Is it then, any wonder, that the doctrine of The Holy Spirit is one of the most attacked, one of the most confused (by us) teachings of the church today?

Why Do We Need The Holy Spirit?

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit Himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.?
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (Rom 8:26-27)

It is essential to recognize that there are very few scriptures, if any, that when talking about God The Father, God The Son, or God The Spirit, are trying to make a statement about the actual physical Substance of Deity. Of any Deity. Well; except maybe for things such as the following:

Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth, their idols were upon the beasts, and upon the cattle: your carriages were heavy loaden; they are a burden to the weary beast. (Isa 46:1)

This kind of "deity" is easily defined by the fact that they were/are carried on the backs of beasts. But there is no scripture which similarly defines the literal, physical Substance of Deity; be it The Father, The Son, or The Spirit.

In the plan of salvation, the constant and preferred locus of trinity is always centered in relationship, both amongst the members of "the eternal Godhead," and between them and to God's people. Just as before the Creation, their locus was in their collective relationship and activities with one another; we were created "in the image of God," certainly not meaning we would become God too, but definitely indicating that we were created, within the same, eternal locus, for relationship, and collective communication both with "God" and with our fellow human beings. The Psalmist certainly reflected that he knew of this essential locus when he prayed:


This text shows that "God's presence" in this case, was accomplished by and through The Holy Spirit. Just like Jesus, in Hebrews 9:14).

Before Creation; the specific LOCUS of trinity was their relationship and activity together. Gen 1:2 is pretty clear: The Holy Spirit was there, and we know from the NT that Jesus was there, as well as The Father who said to the other TWO: "And God said, Let us make man in our image..." The word "us" says it all! Father, Son, Holy Spirit! Co-eternal. Co-existent. "in our image," surely cannot mean that we will become God! It was NEVER about Substance, but always about who is doing what! The LOCUS of trinity is always the same.

Gen 1:26 (Eph 3:15). A Larger Family.--Infinite love--how great it is! God made the world to enlarge heaven. He desires a larger family of created intelligences (MS 78, 1901). {1BC 1081.2}

For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,?Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, (Eph 3:14-15)

Just as "trinity" is in the context of relationship, and "family in heaven," so too is "created in His image." It is this express image of relationship and fellowship that The Eternal Godhead desired at our creation, and yes, we have managed to tarnish that image immensely! BUT this is exactly how the locus of "Christ & Him crucified" come into play, and brings about, not just our salvation, but the restoration of lost relationship and fellowship, in the Church, and in heaven & Earth. The Bible says that "The Spirit speaks EXPRESSLY" that in the latter days, many will preach the doctrines of demons. (1 Tim 4:1). Could said "doctrines of demons" be aiming at all the many "winds of doctrine" about "trinity," and what God is intending for our eternal destiny? Could it be that this "doctrine of demons" has been composed of anything that omits, or lessens the need for, or use of, Calvary, and how "Christ and Him crucified" is the great, central truth, around which all other truths are clustered?

The price of [mankind's] redemption has been paid, and all he has and is should be sprinkled with the blood of Christ, dedicated to God; for it belongs to Him. {FLB 50.7} [compare also Gal 6:14, etc].

Those who are poor in Spirit are those who will inherit the kingdom (Matthew 5:3). That is, those who recognize the need for more of the Spirit in their lives, not those who feel they need more things in their lives. To her son Edson and his wife, Ellen White wrote about full surrender, saying, "Before giving us the baptism of the Holy Spirit, our heavenly Father will try us, to see if we can live without dishonoring Him."

How much more of the Spirit we would see in the church if the things holding us to the world were to be released! "The church is asleep as to the work it might do if it would give up all for Christ. A true spirit of self-sacrifice would be an argument for the reality and power of the gospel which the world could not misunderstand or gainsay, and abundant blessings would be poured upon the church." (4T 483-484)

Shrinking Church Syndrome

Many churches in North America barely exist. They are reminiscent of the valley of dry, dead bones described in Ezekiel 37. They have good, decent people in them, but they are devoid of the Spirit. They subsist with few resources, a limited pool of talent and youth, and they have not won a soul to Jesus in years. Their days are filled with complaints, corrections, or corporate pity. They make absolutely no lasting impact on the surrounding community. But if they really wanted, this situation could change radically. The servant of the Lord gives us the diagnosis, as well as the prescription, for our condition in these churches:




In a future post, I would like to remark more on The Holy Spirit, and His role in this idea of the "greater works than these," part of John 14:12.

Some closing thoughts:

A number of statements in Scripture mention all three members of the Godhead, making them equal in nature and rank, though not in function. The well-known baptismal formula that was part of the Great Commission states that Christ's followers must baptize new disciples "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19). The formula highlights a single name, not three different ones, making each and all of them of the same substance or nature as the others. The apostolic blessing of 2 Corinthians 13:14 reveals the same triune God: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all." And the spiritual gifts lesson by Paul makes the same point by speaking of "varieties of gifts but the same Spirit," "varieties of ministries, and the same Lord," and "varieties of effects, but the same God" (1 Corinthians 12:4?6, emphasis supplied). In Peter's greeting, we find the triune Godhead linked together as before, yet giving hints of their various functions: "Peter, . . . to those who reside as aliens, scattered . . . , who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood" (1 Peter 1:1, 2).

The Bible also identifies, in the Holy Spirit, a number of attributes characteristic only of persons. For instance, the Holy Spirit wills. Paul and his companions were "forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia; and when they had come to Mysia, they were trying to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not permit them" (Acts 16:7, 8). In 1 Corinthians 12 we are told, after several gifts of the Spirit are mentioned, that "the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills" (v. 11). Also, the Holy Spirit is said to have a mind. Paul reminds us that "he who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is" (Romans 8:27). Such mind, the Spirit uses to intercede on our behalf: "for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes . . . with groanings too deep for words" (v. 26). As only persons can, the Spirit gives instruction, as well. Paul writes to Timothy:

Nehemiah reminisced about how God had given Israel His "good Spirit to instruct them" (Nehemiah 9:20). And Jesus promised His disciples that when facing danger or stress because of Him: "the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say" (Luke 12:12). In addition, no force can communicate verbally, as the Holy Spirit does. Only persons do. For example, the Spirit "says" to the churches what we find in Revelation 2 (vv. 7, 11, 17, 29) and 3 (vv. 6, 13, 22).

And He answers the voice from heaven in Revelation 14:13. Finally, we are told that the "Spirit and the bride say, 'Come'" (Revelation 22:17), again suggesting qualities of personhood. A further characteristic is the fact that the Holy Spirit is capable of feelings. Paul counsels the Ephesians to make sure not to "grieve the Holy Spirit of God" (Ephesians 4:30); and Isaiah recalls how Israel had so stubbornly "rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy" (Isaiah 63:10).

And the Spirit has influence. For Paul assures us that "no one can say 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:3). Jesus promised that "when [the Spirit] comes, [He] will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment" (John 16:8). Finally, only persons can love, and all three members of the Godhead love (see John 3:16 and 13:1). Paul appeals to the Romans: "Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit [to pray for me]" (Romans 15:30). And he had already told them, in Romans 5, that "hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit" (5:5, emphasis supplied).

Here are a few more thoughts from the book: Adventism's Greatest Need:"

What does Paul mean by "Christ in you"? Is that really possible? Consider this statement: "It is through the Spirit that Christ dwells in us; and the Spirit of God, received into the heart by faith, is the beginning of the life eternal."1 Did you read that? Through the Spirit Christ dwells in us. To dwell is to live or stay as a permanent resident. Can you fathom the thought of Jesus living in you? Consider this other statement: "Transformation of character is the testimony to the world of an indwelling Christ. The Spirit of God produces a new life in the soul, bringing the thoughts and desires into obedience to the will of Christ; and the inward man is renewed in the image of God."2 The abundant life that Jesus promised (John 10:10), and that everyone wishes they had, is nothing less and nothing other than Jesus in you through the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to His disciples, He was giving them Himself through the Comforter, and that is why it would be to their advantage that He leave (John 16:7). "When He comes," Jesus said in reference to the Spirit, "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you" (v. 14). Paul says that "if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him [Christ]" (Romans 8:9). And then he says, "If Christ is in you . . . the spirit is alive" (v. 10). It was "the Spirit of Christ within" the Old Testament prophets that led them to prophesy of "the grace that would come" (1 Peter 1:11, 10).

Is the "Spirit of Christ" a spirit emanating from Christ, or is He the Holy Spirit? Isaiah had prophesied that the "Spirit of the Lord," the Third Person of the Godhead, would rest on the Messiah?"the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord" (Isaiah 11:2). The Spirit is mentioned seven times in this passage. In the book of Revelation, seven spirits are mentioned in reference to the Lamb who was slain (Revelation 5:6). In the Bible, the number seven denotes completion, perfection. So Jesus was the One full of the Spirit, the supreme example of One with the totality of God's presence in His life, the One who daily received the baptism of the Spirit. And this is the reason Paul and Peter used the expression "the Spirit of Christ." Christ was so full of the Spirit, they were as one and the same, even though distinct Persons.

When Jesus promised His disciples the gift of the Spirit, He gave them the reason they would need Him: "You will receive power . . . and you will be My witnesses" (Acts 1:8). Power to witness. Since a witness is someone who can give first-hand report of the facts, witnessing has little to do with ability but a lot to do with availability. Witnessing is listed nowhere in the New Testament as one of many spiritual gifts. Not something God grants to specific individuals to do His work, it is rather something everyone who has honestly followed Jesus is capable of doing. Witnessing, in short, is the privilege of the converted, not the talented.

When the disciples prayed for the endowment of the Spirit in the Upper Room, they came to the point of full surrender, as never before. The result was an ardent desire to witness for their Master and Savior. "One interest prevailed; one subject of emulation swallowed up all others. The ambition of the believers was to reveal the likeness of Christ's character and to labor for the enlargement of His kingdom."1 Please note that it says one interest, yet it identifies two of them: revealing Christ's character and reaching out to expand God's kingdom. This is the proverbial two sides of one coin. When we receive the Spirit, it will be seen by the lives we live and in the burden we have for the lost.

Clouzet, Ron E. M.. Adventism's Greatest Need . Pacific Press Publishing Association. Kindle Edition.

What is man's greatest need?

Christ is the "Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9. As through Christ every human being has life, so also through Him every soul receives some ray of divine light. Not only intellectual but spiritual power, a perception of right, a desire for goodness, exists in every heart. But against these principles there is struggling an antagonistic power. The result of the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is manifest in every man's experience. There is in his nature a bent to evil, a force which, unaided, he cannot resist. To withstand this force, to attain that ideal which in his inmost soul he accepts as alone worthy, he can find help in but one power. That power is Christ. Co-operation with that power is man's greatest need. {Ed 29.1}

I would like to address this part first.

Neither the Bible (KJB), nor the SoP/ToJ, use the word "trinity" (in applying to Godhead, though a reference to "trinity" exists in Lt 43 May 19, 1898, par. 25, in regards the world's "trinity", lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and pride of life). This is a fact, to which I hope all acknowledge.

I think there is a possible safe way to use the word ("trinity"), so long as properly defined, but more often than not, I think it unsafe to use, since it (the word) carries so much incorrect definitional baggage and bad history. I also think that the wording of the 'fundamental' is actually teaching Roman Catholicism's definition of 'God', to which the pioneers fought against (by words) in their materials. I also think that the definition confuses "God" and "Godhead".

It uses words like "one God", "unity" of "Persons" (plural) and then switches to "He" (singular) referring to the "one God". That is a great mistake.

The verses presented do not teach that definition. What they (verses) do teach is rather in contrast to the above, being a (eternal heavenly) "trio" or a "threefold", an "us", "our", "we", the JEHOVAH Elohiym, or the mighty ruling family JEHOVAH.

I think that fundamental #1 (aka: Bible as the final authority in all matters of faith and practice) ought to take precedence over this 'fundamental' (#2), and we ought to correct fundamental #2 by fundamental #1.

Can we discuss this please?

That conversation has been taking place behind closed doors, in the moderators' chambers, because Daryl has not permitted it to be public.

William Miller's dream should apply here. One can never damage or even tarnish the truth by examining it. I agree with you, Matthew, that it should be discussed more openly.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I see. Can you provide a link to it please.


I do not see any reason why it should not be public, since the 'fundamental' is publicly expressed, and also since the 'fundamental' is not a "creed" to begin with, and can be corrected by scripture at any time, by anyone, since it is not to be 'set in stone' by the General Conference as a test of admittance (thus making it a "creed", which it is again, not supposed to be).

Jesus said:

Joh_18:20? Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

I think the Bible is clear, and even the SoP/ToJ is clear about this on investigating truth and that truth can withstand intense scrutiny. If Daryl is against this, what Bible and SoP/ToJ does he have as counsel against such, and let him present it as force of reason, instead of force of arms.

I agree with you about examining.

I would not even say "more openly", I would just say "openly". I have no fear to investigate prayerfully, and respectfully. Let all know that we are people of the Book (Bible).

Thank you Green Cochoa.

While this statement is of course "true" it may not, in fact, be complete. There are quite a few places in scripture where Jesus says "tell no one," or words to that effect, and so it devolves upon us all to cut Daryl some slack here because I have known him for many years and I think Daryl likely has the fact in mind that not all things need to be told or shown to the general public. Thats what Jesus says in scripture. There are many reasons for this. But first, some evidence for my statement from scripture:



Additionally, I am thinking there is nothing "wrong" with a "creed" as long as it is set in Scripture. I think sometimes people are tending to use the word "creed" in a pejorative sense, which often makes no sense but nonsense Jesus says to

"sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;" (1 Pet 3:15) and so its absolutely NOT wrong to use such things as "creeds" in explaining the main points of our faith. (see also 1 John 1:1-3)

Did you read the context when Jesus used the words "tell no one"? You are misusing those texts. I think this forum needs to cut the conversation some slack, and not hold the conversation back from public discussion. If it is not to be discussed, I am done responding to everything else except what I asked to discuss.

"... The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this Holy Word will be in harmony. ..." - 1 Selected Messages, 416

"... The prayer of Christ to his Father, contained in the seventeenth chapter of John, is to be our church creed. It shows us that our difference and disunion are dishonoring to God. Read the whole chapter, verse by verse. ... " ?Manuscript 12, 1899

Fundamentals can be discussed, challenged (even openly), etc., by the scripture, as they are not a "Creed" (ever, and that is how the GC expresses them - ie not a Creed), yet the Bible is. To sit here and block public discussion of even one of them, means something is up, there is an unhealthy fear of something. Now, it is their forum ,and they can do whatever they like, but that no way approves of it being in the right.

This forum has been in operation for many years, and yes, the topic was openly discussed with pages and pages of posts from multiple sides. It clearly showed that there is NO MEETING ground and it degenerates into spiritual abuse and disrespectful comments concerning the Most Holy Godhead. For those of us who accept the FULL and eternal (from everlasting to everlasting) deity of Christ as a separate being yet one with the Father, we will always see the opposing side as an attack upon the full deity of our Savior Jesus Christ and an attack on the personhood of the Holy Spirit. And the opposing side will always see us as apostates.

And yes, "our difference and disunion are dishonoring to God"

Thus yes, an end was put to the discussions.

I would urge followers of this topic to note that the user who made this post did not follow his own rules in the two succeeding posts that he made where he used EGW quotes and not scripture, to "prove" his point about us using only the Bible in discussing fundamental beliefs. EGW has often told people to never use her writings like this.