I wasn't questioning the 'parallel' in language, though there are specific differences in the Bible and SoP/ToJ to consider. I point that out in my linked material in my response. Did you read that material, especially in the 7 trumpets compared to the 7 last plagues portion? I gave a short and a longer comparison therein.

I wasn't questioning which 'angels' held what.

I wasn't even questioning, that it is God's people that 'blow the seven trumpets'. Of course God's people give the warnings of judgment to come. We have been doing that for the last 2000 years Karen.

What I was questioning, Karen, is the incorrect 'timing' of when the Trumpets are sounded in your response.

What I am saying, is that you have a similar misunderstanding, as Josiah Litch and William Miller had on it. Namely, that when a trumpet (1 of 7) is blown (sounded) a plague (wrath of God, 1 of 7) falls immediately with it in a future time to come. That is incorrect. Consider my linked material again please. If we need to go through each of the trumpets and plagues, let us do so. The trumpets are given throughout the last 2000 years, and the 7 last plagues are specifically a final events thing, as I showed with Revelation 11:18 (it is in the 7th trump that the 7 last plagues are found and I even provided a type in Joshua 5-6 to follow for anti-type. There are more of course to confirm, as I can point to the plagues of Egypt also, which finds anti-type in Revelation.)

Thanks for your response and kindness in sharing your links, Matthew.



I don't know of any historical movement that the seven trumpets message has been herald as loud as trumpet sound throughout for the last 2000 years, which can be as the Seven Trumpets of Revelation. The two witnesses wore sackcloth preaching during the 1,260 years of the Dark Ages (Rev. 11:3). The inhabitants of the earth were in darkness without the truth of the bible, which essentially brought a reformation period.

Apostle John said, "I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet" (Rev. 1:10), and again when he was invited to the throne room in heaven, he said, "I heard ...as it were of a trumpet talking with me" (Rev. 4:1).

I understand that "seven" implies perfect and completeness. In God's plan, the message of the Seven Trumpets has to sound loud and clear to the inhabitants of the earth: Rev. 8:13 "And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

I don't believe that the seven trumpets message has been heralded "through the midst of heave" with "a loud voice" "to the inhabiter of the earth" over the 2,000 years.

Rev. 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." The 'seventh angel' has an inclusive meaning of all the Seven Trumpets.

If interpreted as historical events as you suggest, the seven trumpets have many flaws because their message has not approached by the sanctuary, which essentially is the background. The redemption of God's love is immeasurable and infinite that the fickle man's history does not fit for interpretation. It must be in the prism of the sanctuary.

Ps. 77:13 "Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary"

If I may ask you, Since you believe that the 7 trumpet angels are representative of God's people sounding warning (correct? I do.), do you see any connection in language to, and/or structure of the text about, the 7 trumpet angels to the 7 angels of the 7 churches (Revelation 1:10-20)? I do.

Both are true (historical events and sanctuary), and not mutually exclusive, but in perfect harmony. It is not an 'either/or', but a 'both/and'. In other words I agree that the material of the 7 trumpets must be seen within the context of the sanctuary of God, and it is, and so must also the historical events that go with them. It is even in the type in the Exodus (even the sanctuary is there).

Most of the 'interpretations' of the 7 trumpets have been off, and that is especially true for some of the pioneers and leaders, etc (Josiah Litch, Wm. Miller, Uriah Smith, etal), but it also carries down unto this current day, like K. Cox (has some good material, but like the rest, has incorrect material), I. Myers (has some excellent material and insight on some, and then also mistakes 5-7 and takes the old incorrect Mohammedan/Islamic approach), J. Rafferty (good at the start and then fails in the 5-7, simply taking U. Smith for 'gospel'), and even S. Bohr (though he is closer than most I have seen, read, viewed, etc and is willing to consider the text of scripture more closely in spite of the opposition) and D. Batchelor (takes the Islamic approach in 5-7 basically, and has quite a bit of incorrect material there, and I tried to warn him of it before leaving AFmin, but it did not succeed, and I can demonstrate this from the 3 presentations given and scripture and SoP/ToJ itself) and so many others (like those of the Dan. & Rev. study committee at Conf. level). Some are closer to the truth than others, and some in specific areas more than others.

This is not to say that each of those are all wrong (there is a lot right), or lost (definitely not), or anything like that, or that I alone hold any market corner on truth (far be it). It is that I have carefully studied each and studied what the Bible itself and the SoP/ToJ says together, and what I am saying, is that there is room for improvement and need of correction where needed.

For instance, Uriah Smith starts the first trumpet in the year AD 395, as he says and cites:

"... "VERSE 7. The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up." {1897 UrS, DAR 477.5} [478]

Mr. Keith has very justly remarked on the subject of this prophecy:- {1897 UrS, DAR 478.1}

"None could elucidate the texts more clearly, or expound them more fully, than the task has been performed by Gibbon. The chapters of the skeptical philosopher that treat directly of the matter, need but a text to be prefixed, and a few unholy words to be blotted out, to form a series of expository lectures on the eighth and ninth chapters of Revelation." "Little or nothing is left for the professed interpreter to do but to point to the pages of Gibbon." {1897 UrS, DAR 478.2}

The first sore and heavy judgment which fell on Western Rome in its downward course, was the war with the Goths under Alaric, who opened the way for later inroads. The death of Theodosius, the Roman emperor, occurred in January, 395, and before the end of the winter the Goths under Alaric were in arms against the empire. {1897 UrS, DAR 478.3}
The first invasion under Alaric ravaged Thrace, Macedonia, Attica, and the Peloponnesus, but did not reach the city of Rome. On his second invasion, however, the Gothic chieftain crossed the Alps and the Apennines and appeared before the walls of the "eternal city," which soon fell a prey to the fury of the barbarians. {1897 UrS, DAR 478.4}

"Hail and fire mingled with blood" were cast upon the earth. The terrible effects of this Gothic invasion are represented as "hail," from the fact of the northern origin of the invaders; "fire," from the destruction by flame of both city and country; and "blood," from the terrible slaughter of the citizens of the empire by the bold and intrepid warriors. {1897 UrS, DAR 478.5}

The blast of the first trumpet has its location about the close of the fourth century and onward, and refers to these desolating invasions of the Roman empire under the Goths. {1897 UrS, DAR 478.6}

I know not how the history of the sounding of the first trumpet can be more impressively set forth than by presenting the graphic rehearsal of the facts which are stated in Gibbon's History, by Mr. Keith, in his Signs of the Times, Vol. I, pp. 221-233:- {1897 UrS, DAR 478.7} ..."

That is just error. The first trumpet does not begin in AD 395. Uriah Smith is well off of the mark on that. We can look at the first trumpet if need be from the Bible and SoP/ToJ to see that.

Uriah Smith says of the 7th Seal, "... Silence in Heaven. - Concerning the cause of this silence, only conjecture can be offered, - a conjecture, however, which is supported by the events of the sixth seal. ..." (Dan. & Rev., page 475.4)

However, scripture is very clear as to what the cause of the silence is and no conjecture is ever needed. I show that in my reply here - https://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=194125

Josiah Litch errs in other areas, namely when he says things like:

"... We are in this passage informed that their army would consist of horses principally, and their weapons of warfare would be firearms, guns and gunpowder being exactly described ..." (1833 WiM, ESH 41.2)

"... The fifth trumpet alludes to the rise of the Turkish empire under Ottoman, at the downfall of the Saracens. Ottoman uniting under his government the four contending nations of Mahometans, which had long contended for the power during the reign of the Saracen empire, viz., the Saracens, Tartars, Arabs, and Turks. These, all being by profession Mahometans, were ready to follow any daring leader to conquer and drive out from Asia (and even make excursion into Europe) all who professed the Christian faith. They, having embraced the errors of that fallen star, Mahomet, ..." (1842 WiM, MWV2 115.4)

"... The four angels, we may reasonably conclude, are a representation of the four nations that had embraced the Mahometan religion, and were now under the control of the Ottoman, viz., Turks, Tartars, Arabs, and Saracens. The time expressed in the last-mentioned verse is 391 years and 15 days ..." (1842 WiM, MWV2 121.1)

Josiah Litch even directly connected all of the 7 trumpets to the 7 last plagues, and that as the 1st Trumpt sounded, so too did fall the 1st plague and so on unto the 7th of each, as he says:

?... When the sixth angel pours out his vial on the great river Euphrates, or the Ottoman empire, it will be dried up. This, according to former calculations, will take place about 1840. The way is now prepared for the battle of Armageddon, or the great battle of that great day of God Almighty. I have already given my opinion of this event. (See Dan. xii. 1, and the remarks on it, Chap. III.) When the sixth angel has sounded, the sixth vial has been poured out, and the second woe is ended, then the third woe comes quickly; how quickly, time must decide. ...? (1838 JoL, PSC 189.1)

"... The seventh and last vial of God's wrath will be poured into the air about the year 1840, if my former calculations are correct ..." (1842 WiM, MWV2 227.2)

There is no way possible, according to scripture that that which Josiah Litch here identifies is fitting the symbols. This is fully demonstrable from the text of scripture itself.

Wm. Miller was basically with Josiah Litch's point of view. Uriah Smith then basically picked up that torch (in the 5-7, though stretches out the trumpets in history rather than lump summing them with the 7 last plagues), and many run today with the same, never having considered these things carefully. After 1844 (Great Disappointment) most did not go back and take another look at those things which were supposed to have ended at that date. Rafferty, Batchelor and others basically share that same view. Cox is slightly different, though not too far afield, and Myers goes his own way, and Bohr is much closer to scripture and SoP/ToJ than others.

So, as you can see, some of the 'historical event's that are 'identified' as having fulfilled some of the trumpets are indeed, incorrect. That is not in question. Yet, let us not throw out the baby with the bathwater, as the old saying goes. Just because some of the proffered history will not rightly fit the symbols given, that does not mean that all of historical events for the last 2K years will not either. That is stepping beyond the appropriate logic.

The 7 trumpet angels, are these angels:

Rev 1:20? The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rev 1:11? Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.?

Many people have private interpretation. "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." 2 Tim 3:7

I admire your passion to scrutinize some of the papular interpretation in Adventist circle. May God continue to bless you in searching of the truth of the seven trumpets message. You might want to take a look at my book in Amazon.com : The Glorious Announcement: The Seven Trumpets by Karen Yang.

I have tatally different approach than traditional interpretation of the Seven Trumpets, but within the frame work of Sanctuary.
The book of Revelation begins with "a great voice, as of a trumpet," (Rev. 1:10) and gets louder, Rev. 4:1 "the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me..."

When it gets to the Seven Trumpet section of the vision, it becomes a worldwide warning: Rev. 8:13 "..an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

The intention of the Seven Trumpets message is in a scope of worldwide, and the inhabitants of the earth can't ignore them.

True, yet the context of that verse deals with the form of godliness (gospel-like) and denying its power (victory over sin). It's called "virtue signaling" (see 666, Revelation 13:18, in 'agathoergeo'.)

Private interpretation happens for several reasons, not just that one. Some are just simply based on mistaken notions, like how they view the GC quote, or the GC itself as a whole. Some are mistaken because they haven't actually studied and took the word of another without really checking the 'amazing facts or discoveries presented' or they got it from the 'power of the man', instead of the authority of the Lamb. Some or purposefully mistaken, and when challenged they refuse to consider the evidence which is clearly contrary to their stated positions.

Thank you. I am most serious about being in harmony with what the word of God (KJB) says, and to understand it so that I can rightly teach others, and not be mistaken myself, or leap to incorrect conclusions. I try to teach (a gift from God) only those things that I can verify as true in the mouth of two or three witnesses (usually like 10 or more from all sources, starting with Scripture, SoP/ToJ, History, etc)

Thank you for pointing me in such a direction, but I am poor, and am living by grace. Would you be willing to provide me a free copy by PDF (email) and I'll read it (you have my word, that I will not share it beyond my HD). Additionally, Amazon does not always ship to A.S. If you are unable to do this, no worries, and I appreciate the offer. It is not that I do not desire to deeply consider your position, it is that my present circumstances limit me in what I can do in purchasing things online and getting them to me.

I understand. I get, a basic gist, about your position and see some of the logic used, though I do not have the whole of your position. I do not condemn you or your position based upon my ignorance (not full knowledge) of it. I simply place it on the shelf in my mind or back burner until I can rightly study the position in full, but I do contrast what I do know of your position, to what I know from my own personal study and make present judgement, based upon the word therein about the differences between the two. At the moment, based only on what I know, my position is at odds with yours (at least in part). I already agree about the sanctuary aspect that you mentioned, and that it cannot contradict historical events.

True, but "voice, as of a trumpet" and "as it were of a trumpet" is not quite the same things as the "voice of a trumpet" or the "sound[ing]" thereof. However, let's for the sake of the consideration, say that both of those references refer to the 7 trumpets and their warning, that would then also agree with an historical (not future alone) application, beginning nearly 2000 years ago in the time of John the Apostle.

Yes and no. Yes, beginning at the 5th (and not before) trumpet it matches the language of the 3 angels messages (and that connection is sound based upon my own prayerful study), but to say that all of the trumpets beginning with the 1st Trumpet are entirely global is 'unsound'. Revelation 8:13 speaks only of the last 3 Trumpets, not the first four in matters of a global outreach. It is specific to the "three [woe] angels".

I agree that the last 3 Trumpets (5-7) are of a global approach, but the first 4 are differing in that area.

What did you think when I pointed to Joshua 5-6 for a type to understanding, and to the Exodus from Egypt?

1 Trumpet per day for 6 consecutive days (an historical approach), and finally in the 7th day were to be 7 trumpets, just as the 7 last plagues are in the 7th trump, Revelation 11:18.

1st - 2nd - 3rd - 4th - 5th - 6th - 7th (7 plagues in the 7th trump)

Also, the 3 Woes tie into Exodus also, in that there were 10 plagues in Egypt, and the 3 last woes, in combination with the 7 last plagues also make 10. It is key that the 3 woe trumpets (5-7) speak of plagues (Revelation 9:20, "these plagues", dealing with the "locusts"), while the previous 4 trumpets don't use that word in association with them.

What if I can show you from Revelation 9:1, that it is directly connected to 1 of the 7 churches of Revelation 1, from the Bible and the SoP/ToJ?

Thanks, Matthew, I enjoyed reading your discussion. I suspect that you are a diligent bible student.

Rev. 8:13 "And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

"by reason of the other voices" and "which are yet to sound!" clearly imply that the coming last three "woe" are more intensified than the first four. In other words, the seven trumpet judgment of God conveys the urgency of woes, for the last three trumpets are "about to sound."

In the last threefold woe, I find approaching spiritual torment upon humanity.
Rev. 9:5-6 "...their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

Rev. 9:15 "And the four angels were loosed,... for to slay the third part of men." The reference of the four angels are in Rev. 7:1-3, which means the sealing of God has been completed and the plagues are to come upon the wicked who did not repent their sins. See Rev. 9:20-21.

The last one of the threefold woe is when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of God, which means at the second coming of Jesus. The wicked, then, will wail "the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us" (Rev. 6:16). "all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." (Rev. 1:7)


I will have to think about your suggestions of Joshua 5-6 for application to the seven trumpets.

The book of mine in Amazon.com only available in Kindle form for $4.99. If you don't have Kindle service, send me your email for your mailing address. I will send you a hard copy.

It is so untrue that Jesus is not present in Chapter 4 of Revelation.
In Chapter 4, John was told to "come up hither" so that he can see things "which must be hereafter." We find a similar phrase in Chapter 1, "the things which shall be hereafter" (Rev. 1:19).

Chapter 1 is an introduction to Chapter 2-3, the Seven Churches.
Chapter 4-5 is an introduction to Chapter 6-7, the Seven Seals.

"the things which shall be hereafter" (Rev. 1:19)
"things which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1)

In Chapter 1, Jesus is in the heavenly temple walking among the candlesticks, which means He is in the temple in heaven and He cares for His churches on the earth.
In Chapter 4, Jesus is present on the throne of God, which is the temple. (See Ps. 11:4).

John saw "one sat on the throne" and he did not specify if the "one" is the Father God or the Trinity. More information is added on as we read further in the context of Chapter 4.

Notice the three distinct colors mentioned: Jasper, sardine, and emerald.
Notice the rainbow encircled the throne (Rev. 4:3).

Jasper color is for the Father God (See also Rev. 21:11, 18, 19).
Sardine is red color which represents Jesus Christ.
Emerald color represents the Holy Spirit.

The rainbow encircled the throne means the oneness of the Trinity. So, John said "one" sitting on the throne.

The 24 Elders are the people whom Jesus led the "captivity captive" (Eph. 4:8) when He ascended to heaven as the first fruit of the sheaves of harvest in the OT feastal days. If so, they could not have set down on the throne of God prior to Jesus would sit down first. Remember Rev. 3:21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

"Out of the throne proceeded lightenings and thunderings and voices" (Rev. 4:5). When God spoke on the mount Sinai, a similar phenomenon happened (Ex. 19:16). In Hebrews 12:25-27, the texts say that Jesus speaks from the heaven which occurs similar phenomena. Therefore, Rev. 4:5 has a reference point here.

The four living creatures appear with the attributes of Jesus Christ in v. 6-7. They sang, "holy, holy, holy" because of the presence of the Trinity on the throne.

The 24 Elders throw their crowns before the feet of Jesus as though they say we are not worthy to wear the crowns but only Jesus.

Jesus is worshipped as the Creator here in Chapter 4. "without Him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3). Some people seems to ignore these clear indications of the presence of Jesus in Chapter 4, and keep make misinterpretation and cherishes a private interpretation.

The structural introduction of Chapter 1 and 4-5 indicate that Jesus speaks from the heavenly temple ever since His ascension after the cross.

Hi again sister Karen,

The Bible never uses the word "trinity", neither does the SoP/ToJ in reference to Godhead or Deity. 'Trinity', as commonly defined, is a false construct of Roman Catholicism (I ought to know having been Roman Catholic for 30 years, and can cite those sources if need be). I do not care for the secretive manner and curtailment of open study with which this so called Seventh-day Adventist forum and its 'management' has attempted to bury that by their preconceived agendas. Never the less:

There are two places in the Temple, which is why the Bible uses the phrase "heavenly places" (plural).

Revelation Chapters 4-5 indeed identify who is the "one" (singular, not plural) upon the "throne" there. It is the Person/Being of the Father himself ("he", Rev. 4:3, "Lord God Almighty" Rev. 4:8, "him that sat on the throne" Rev. 4:9,10, and "thou art worthy, O Lord ... for thou ..." Rev 4:11), who moves from the Most Holy Place into the Holy Place ("behold, a throne was set in heaven" Rev. 4:2; "and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne" Rev. 4:5) to receive Jesus, the Lamb ("stood a Lamb as it had been slain" Rev. 5:6), at His second ascension from the Mount of Olives (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9-10), that he (Jesus) may begin his work as Great High Priest with the outpouring of the Holy Ghost ("which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth" Rev. 5:6; Psa. 133:1-3; Acts 1:5,8, 2:1-4,18,33, etc) at Pentecost.

The Son is clearly identified in Chapter 5 (not 4) of Revelation as not the one upon the throne, but the one who is "in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders" (Rev. 5:6). It is the Son who "came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne" (Rev. 5:7) (the Person/Being of the Father), for it was the Father who sat upon the throne holding the book, "And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals." (Rev. 5:1).

The Spirit of Prophecy also identifies that it is "God" (the Father) who is sitting on the throne in Revelation 4-5, and that it is the Son who takes from the Father's hand the scroll sealed with seven seals. You may look up those references yourself. To be out of harmony with them, is ultimately to be out of harmony with the scripture I just cited above in evidence. Not a safe position.

Yes, there are those precious jewels and colours mentioned.

While I see your 'opinion', your 'private interpretation' (2 Peter 1:20) , about what the gems/colours mean, I didn't see any scripture given that would substantiate those opinions. Revelation 21:11 comes close (18 and 19 not really), you provided nothing in regards to the others representing Jesus, neither the Holy Ghost/Spirit. until you do, from both the Bible and the SoP/ToJ, I must disagree with you here, and ask you to be more careful in what you say. It is not safe to merely 'guess' at these things.

I see no scriptural evidence again provided, and again nothing from the SoP/ToJ. I also see nowhere in either, the word "trinity" in association with Godhead or Deity.

The phrases provided already above, "he", "him", thou", etc, are not speaking of multiple Persons/Beings, but just one individual Person/Being, that is the Father, God/Lord Almighty.

Yes, but the word "one" (Rev. 4:2) is in italics, and not present in koine Greek text, though it is implied by the context.

Rev. 4:2 transliterated koine Greek - kai euthews egenomen en pneumati kai idou thronos ekeito en tw ouranw kai epi tou thronou kathemenos

The word "one" (in italics) simply means 'person', or 'individual'. It would be like saying, "one like the Son of man" (Dan. 7:13), when it deals with the Person/Being of the Son approaching the Father, the "Ancient of Days" (Dan. 7:9,13,22)

I repeat again from above:

"Revelation Chapters 4-5 indeed identify who is the "one" (singular, not plural) upon the "throne" there. It is the Person/Being of the Father himself ("he", Rev. 4:3, "Lord God Almighty" Rev. 4:8, "him that sat on the throne" Rev. 4:9,10, and "thou art worthy, O Lord ... for thou ..." Rev 4:11), who moves from the Most Holy Place into the Holy Place ("behold, a throne was set in heaven" Rev. 4:2; "and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne" Rev. 4:5) to receive Jesus, the Lamb ("stood a Lamb as it had been slain" Rev. 5:6), at His second ascension from the Mount of Olives (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9-10), that he (Jesus) may begin his work as Great High Priest with the outpouring of the Holy Ghost ("which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth" Rev. 5:6; Psa. 133:1-3; Acts 1:5,8, 2:1-4,18,33, etc) at Pentecost.

The Son is clearly identified in Chapter 5 (not 4) of Revelation as not the one upon the throne, but the one who is "in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders" (Rev. 5:6). It is the Son who "came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne" (Rev. 5:7) (the Person/Being of the Father), for it was the Father who sat upon the throne holding the book, "And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals." (Rev. 5:1)."

The Person/Being on the throne, being a single individual Person/Being (the Father) is identified with all three gemstones/colours, two for himself and one for the glory surrounding the Throne itself:

Rev 4:3? And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.?

Notice, again the word "he" (singular Person/Being) is to "look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone". The Son is not identified by the sardine immediately here, though it can be said that the Son looks like the Father, being the "express image of his (the Father's) person" (Heb. 1:3), and thus would also be represented by both the jasper and sardine as well in glory.

Since both are later seen seated upon the throne together, the emerald surrounds them both, while the Holy Ghost/Spirit is identified as being across from ("before" Rev. 4:5) them, as the 7 Spirits of God (the Holy Ghost; Isaiah 11:2, all 7 aspects are there, the 7th is slightly hidden/veiled but still there)), the 7 Branch Candlestick. The Throne in the Holy Place is represented by the Table of Shewbread.

Side note, the table of shewbread, is the symbol of the Throne of God in the Holy Place, as it was covered in Gold, had a crown [for Kings] molding, and two places for bread, 6 and 6, a place for the Father and Son on the throne, as the Son lives by the word [bread] of the Father, we are to live by the word [bread] of Jesus [John 6:57; Revelation 3:21 KJB], of which the Tree of Light in the Holy place has 6 branches [Exodus 25:32,33,35,37:18,19,21 KJB] out of the central stock, even as it represents the Holy Spirit [Revelation 1:4, 3:1, 4:5, 5:6, 22:17 KJB], and this light [2 Peter 1:19 KJB] coming from Him, is the Spirit of Prophecy [Revelation 19:10 KJB] working in holy men, as they are moved by the Holy Ghost [2 Peter 1:20-21 KJB], thus the number 6 is the number of man [Genesis 1:26-31 KJB]:

Exodus 25:24 KJB - And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, and make thereto a crown of gold round about.

Leviticus 24:5 KJB - And thou shalt take fine flour, and bake twelve cakes thereof: two tenth deals shall be in one cake.

Leviticus 24:6 KJB - And thou shalt set them in two rows, six on a row, upon the pure table before the LORD.

Leviticus 24:7 KJB - And thou shalt put pure frankincense upon each row, that it may be on the bread for a memorial, even an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

Deuteronomy 8:3 KJB - And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Matthew 4:4 KJB - But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Matthew 22:44 KJB - The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Matthew 26:64 KJB - Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 12:36 KJB - For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Mark 14:62 KJB - And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 16:19 KJB - So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Luke 4:4 KJB - And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Luke 20:42 KJB - And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Luke 22:69 KJB - Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

John 6:57 KJB - As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

John 14:24 KJB - He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Acts 2:25 KJB - For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

Acts 2:33 KJB - Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 2:34 KJB - For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Acts 5:31 KJB - Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 7:55 KJB - But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Acts 7:56 KJB - And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Romans 8:34 KJB - Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Ephesians 1:20 KJB - Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Colossians 3:1 KJB - If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 1:13 KJB - But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Hebrews 8:1 KJB - Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Hebrews 10:12 KJB - But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Hebrews 12:2 KJB - Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Peter 3:22 KJB - Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Revelation 3:21 KJB - To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


The 24 elders are not the firstfruits taken back to Heaven from their special resurrection. The 24 elders are the leaders of the unfallen worlds, already present even in the OT (Isa. 24:23, etc).

?Living Creatures?:
Ezekiel 1:5,13,14,15,19, 3:13, 10:1,2,3,5,6,7,8,9,15,16,18,19,20, 11:22; ?four beasts?: Revelation 4:6,8, 5:6,8,11,14, 6:1,6, 7:11, 14:3, 15:7, 19:4.

?Four and Twenty Elders?, the leaders of the other unfallen worlds:
Revelation 4:4,10, 5:5,6,8,11,14, 7:11,13, 11:16, 14:3, 19:4,

see also ?ancients?: Isaiah 24:23

In short, the 4 "living creatures", or the "four beasts" are all the unfallen peoples of the unfallen worlds, a representation of the universal Kingdom of God. A beast in prophecy, is a Kingdom, or Nation, or political body of persons [Daniel 7:17,19 KJB, etc, such as: Genesis 49:9; Isaiah 27:1, 46:11; Jeremiah 4:7, 5:6, 12:8, 25:38, 49:19, 50:44; Ezekiel 17:3,7, 32:2; Daniel 7:7,19,23, 8:20,21; Joel 1:6; Micah 5:8; Revelation 13:1,2,3,7,11,12, 17:3,7,8,11,12, etc., KJB].

The number 4, is the universal number [Genesis 2:10; Exodus 20:8-11 KJB, see four winds, north, south, east and west, four corners, four quarters, the four things in Proverbs, etc, etc], the number of the 4 quarters of space and time [as in the 4th generation]. Thus they represent all of the Heavenly kingdom of God before His throne, all the unfallen worlds circling the throne of Deity. Each of the four faces, represent a character of God, Godly, Kingly, Exalted, Humble, even as the Four Gospels portray Jesus, etc.

In short, the 24 "Elders" or "ancients", are the Heavenly council, the 'presbyters' [if you please], of the unfallen Leaders of the unfallen worlds, the very ?sons of God? who rule the unfallen worlds, as Adam [Luke 3:38 KJB], the first [1 Corinthians 15:45,46,47 KJB], on earth had [Genesis 1:26,28; Psalms 8:5 KJB] before his fall, and the angelic ?morning stars. They are the central representation of all the unfallen worlds, the General Conference of Heaven if you please. They are not human [but take the prayers of the saints on earth before God, Revelation 5:7-8 KJB, as this is what unfallen Heavenly beings do, Daniel 9:21-23; Matthew 18:10; Acts 10:3-4 KJB, etc]. Also there are 24 hours in a day, which also corresponds with time, 12 hours in the daytime [John 11:9 KJB], 12 in the nighttime [Genesis 1:4; Ezekiel 18:25,29 KJB], as there are 12 Patriarchs in the OT [Genesis 35:22 KJB, etc], and 12 Apostles in the NT [Matthew 10:2; Luke 6:13, 22:14; Revelation 21:14 KJB]. 12 Gates and 12 Foundations [Revelation 21:12,13,21 KJB] of the Heavenly city, New Jerusalem [Galatians 4:26; Revelation 3:12, 21:2,10, 22:19 KJB].

Each of the 24 Elders have crowns already [thus are not the redeemed, who do not get crowns until after the resurrection, and they already existed in the OT] and white [Light] raiment as Adam did when he was given dominion [stewardship] of this world, before sin.

See:

Ezekiel 1:10, 10:14;
Numbers 1:50-53, 2:2-3,5,7,9,10,12,14,16,17,18,20,22,24,25,27,29,31,34;
Numbers 3:17,23,29,35,38,
Revelation 5:5.

The earthly model on earth, with Moses in the wilderness, with the peoples Israel and the 12 tribes, were a represtantion of the Heavenly government [which occultists twist, "As above, so below"]:

Deuteronomy 1:15 KJB - So I took the chief of your tribes, wise men, and known, and made them heads over you, captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, and captains over fifties, and captains over tens, and officers among your tribes.

Matthew 6:10 KJB - Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Luke 11:2 KJB - And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Let us see these things, again in brief, for a fuller documentation, I can post, but it is lengthy:

Unfallen beings, on unfallen worlds [no, not little green, grey or reptilian, etc, that is satan's mockery of heaven,a mischaracterization, a misrepresentation, for Heavenly beings are glorious to behold, shining as the light]:

The unfallen ?worlds?, and the unfallen beings therein which ?went not astray?, being ?just persons, which need no repentance?:
Hebrews 1:2 KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 11:3 KJB - Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Side note, those of man-kind, which are in Christ Jesus, are the 'aliens' to the wicked, for we are the very strangers and pilgrims [Satan has counterfeited and reversed this] in the universe. In reverse, the unfallen worlds are the natural, and sinners are the unnatural, thus are alienated from God:

Hebrews 11:13 KJB - These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

We are that one lost world, whom the Son of God, 'Jesus', left the '99' for in Heaven to come and save us, that he might come from that ?far country? and deliver us, and ?return home? with us, that we may once again have a ?place? among those ?many mansions?:
Matthew 18:11 KJB - For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Matthew 18:12 KJB - How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

Matthew 18:13 KJB - And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

Luke 15:4 KJB - What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Luke 15:5 KJB - And when he hath found [it], he layeth [it] on his shoulders, rejoicing.

Luke 15:6 KJB - And when he cometh home, he calleth together [his] friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

Luke 15:7 KJB - I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Revelation 12:12 KJB - Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

John 14:1 KJB - Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 KJB - In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 KJB - And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

If any would like more on the unfallen worlds, the unfallen beings, the order of God's Heavenly government, I can post that

Here are some good notes (mine) on the symbols of Revelation 4:

Revelation 4 - 'God's Throne' = 'Table of Shewbread' in the Holy Place. Where is the Table of Shewbread in the Sanctuary? Right side = North Side. Exodus 26:35, 40:22; Isaiah 14:13; Psalms 75:6; 'a crown of gold' - Exodus 25:24; 2 places (Father & Son) Leviticus 24:5-7; 'bread' - Deuteronomy 8:3; Matthew 4:4; Luke 4:4; John 6:57, 14:24. 'right hand'. God's Throne is movable, see Ezekiel, wheels, etc. God the Father and Throne began in the Most Holy Place, and moved to Meet Jesus in the Holy Place in Revelation 4. In Revelation 3, they moved into the Most Holy Place. Notice the words, 'set' and 'sat'.

4 'Beasts' (Living Creatures) Ezekiel 1:5,13,14,15,19, 3:3, 10:1,2,3,5,6,7,8,9,15,16,18,19,20, 11:22; Revelation 4:6,8, 5:6,8,11,14, 6:1,6, 7:11, 14:3, 15:7, 19:4. See also the two cherubim on the ark, and the two greater Cherubim that Solomon made in the Stone Temple, making 4. 'Living' also means filled with the Spirit of God, see Genesis 2:7.

'Beasts' = Kingdoms, and since they are Heavenly 'Beasts:', they are representing Heavenly Kingdoms/Waters, etc. Daniel 7:17,19; Genesis 49:9; Isaiah 27:1, 46:11; Jeremiah 4:7, 5:6, 12:8, 25:38, 49:19, 50:44; Ezekiel 17:3,7, 32:2; Daniel 7:7,17,19,23, 8:20,21; Joel 1:6; Micah 5:8; Revelation 13:1,2,3,7,11,12, 17:3,7,8,11,12, etc.

'Four' = universal; Genesis 2:10; Exodus 20:8-11, etc.

24 = 12x2, 6x4, 8x3, etc.

'elders' = 'ancients'/'old', 'grayheaded', also indicates 'overseer', leading positions.

24 elders = strong angels, leaders of the unfallen worlds, and are NOT (*) human. - Revelation 4:4,10, 5:5,6,8,11,14, 7:11,13, 11:16, 14:3, 19:4; Isaiah 24:23 (ancients), see also Ezekiel 8:15-17, 11:1-2. See also the type in the OT on earth, which mirrored that which existed in Heaven - Numbers 1:50-53, 2:2-3,5,7,10,12,14,16,17,18,20,22,24,25,27,29,31,34, 3:17,23,29,35,38; Deuteronomy 1:15; 1 Chronicles 27:1-15

What about Revelation 5:6, 'redeemed us'? This is only a single text, and is not to be abused/wrested. It must always be in the mouth of two or three witnesses. How we know that they (24 Elders) are not human -

1. They already have crowns. The saints (human) of God, do not get those until their resurrection/translation. 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 2 Timothy 4:8; James 1:12; 1 Peter 5:4, see also Hebrews 2:7,9; 2 Timothy 2:5, as Jesus received Crown.

2. They already have white robes. They are sinless.

3. They do not ever appear in Revelation with victory Palms, but only the human saints who were resurrected and translated do.

4. We know who they are NOT ? They are not the Apostles (12 or Paul), since they are all still deceased in the first death (for they all died after Jesus ascended, and John is the one writing Revelation on the Isle of Patmos), and not resurrected. They are not any of Adam, Noah, Job, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, or any of the 12 Sons of Jacob/Israel, David, since they are still deceased in the first death, and not resurrected (see Hebrews 11, Abraham, etc is still waiting, see Acts 2, David is still waiting, etc), and it only included a special group that was buried around Jerusalem (thus possibly John the Baptist, but scripture, and SoP/ToJ do not ever say who or how many). The only other humans in Heaven before then was Enoch, Elijah, Moses.

5. Some try to link the special resurrection around Jerusalem, in Matthew 27, when Jesus resurrected to the '24'. Yet, we are never told in any location exactly who or how many were in that special resurrection, and there is no indication of young or old ? see Psalms 24:1-10, 68:18; Ephesians 4:8; 1 Corinthians 15:20,23; Isaiah 26:19.

6. Neither Jesus, nor the specially resurrected saints from Jerusalem, nor even the 'angels' are seen in Revelation 4, at all. It is only the Father, the 4 Beasts (Living Creatures) and the 24 Elders/Ancients, which are all already present before Jesus even shows up with 'victory train'.

7. Jesus shows up, along with the angels in Revelation 5, after which we were already introduced to the 24 Elders/Ancients in Revelation 4.

8. The ?thrones? (principalities, powers, etc) of Heaven, already existed before earth was even created, see also John 14:1-3 (a place, which was vacant by the angels which left their first estate/(arch)offices); Matthew 18:10-14; Luke 15:3-7; Revelation 12:12; Hebrews 1:2, 11:3; Job 1:6, 2:1; 1 Kings 22:19-24; 2 Chronicles 18:18-23; Colossians 1:6; Isaiah 14:13; etc.

9. The 24 Elders have in their hands the ?incense? ?with? the ?prayers of the saints?, which means they are praying/singing on behalf of someone else, see that Angels, etc carry prayer to heaven, Daniel 9:21-23, 10:11; Matthew 18:10; Acts 10:34, and see that Angels are ?ministering spirits? - Hebrews 1:7,14; Psalms 104:4, and thus connect with Revelation 5:8-11. Jesus speaks on behalf of the Father (and comes in the name of the Father), and the Holy Ghost speaks on behalf of Jesus (ie, comes in the name of Jesus).

What then about the ?crowns? that the 24 Elders wear, are they not a ?stephanos? (a victory crown)? They are ?stephanos?, but this can simply mean a crown worn, though it can also mean a victory crown (didn't Jesus also win the victory for the heavenly beings also? Rejoice ye heavens, etc, Revelation 12), see also Revelation 9:7, wherein the 'locust' also have something like a 'crown' (stephanos). See also the so-called LXX (work of Origen, etc) uses, wherein it is just a crown, see so-called LXX 2 Samuel 12:30; 1 Chronicles 20:2; Esther 8:15; Psalms 21:3, 65:11; Proverbs 1:9, 4:9; Job 19:9, 31:36; Ezekiel 16:12, 21:31, 23:42; Isaiah 22:18,21; Song of Solomon 3:11; Psalms 102:4, and see also the LXX (Apocrypha) 1 Maccabees 10:20, 13:37,39; Sirach 6:31, 15:6, 32:2, 40:4, 45:12, etc. The other worlds also had tests similar to that of Adam. They never sinned.

(*) SoP/ToJ ? Letter 65, 1898, par. 18; MR 12 (921-999), 296.4; MR 20 (1420-1500), 197.3 ? (citing Revelation 5:5; ?elder?) - ?... that one of the strong angels had compassion on him, and laying his hand on him assuringly said, ?Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. ...?

(*) SoP/ToJ ? Sermons and Talks, Volume 1, 35.2; Signs of the Times, Dec. 22, 1887, par. 7 ? (citing Revelation 7:13-15; ?elder?) - ?... And the angel answers, ?These are they which came out of great tribulation ...?

On earth, as it is in heaven (stolen by occult as ?As above, so below?) - Matthew 6:10; Luke 11:2

Pentecost ? Revelation 5:6; Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4, 2:1-3,33; Psalms 133:1-3.

3,000 men/'slain' ? Acts 2:41; Exodus 32:28

Moses/Aaron ? Leviticus 8:10-12, 21:10-12; Hebrews 1:9; Exodus 29:6-7

As for the firstfruits resurrected, you can read my study here:

https://archive.org/download/matthe...uits%20Resurrection%20of%20Jerusalem.pdf

to which I reproduce below:

Isaiah foretold, that the body of Jesus would be resurrected, and along with Him, others at Jerusalem:

Isaiah 26:19 - Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

See also Psalms 40:6; Hebrews 10:5; Galatians 4:4;

Psalms 40:6 - Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Hebrews 10:5?- Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Galatians 4:4 - But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Psalms 68, a Psalms of David, sang about the Son of David, Jesus Christ, and His victory over sin and the grave:

Psalms 68:8 - The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: even Sinai itself was moved at the presence of God, the God of Israel.

Psalms 68:17 - The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

Psalms 68:18 - Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Psalms 68:20 - He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.

Psalms 68:21 - But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses.

Psalms 68:21 - references Genesis 3:15, and notice the connection to harvest, firstfruits, wavesheaf and the "seed" that began it all -

Genesis 3:15? And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Paul cites Psalms 68:18, in direction connetion to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the freeing of the captives from the grave, and thus the specific persons around Jerusalem that had been sleeping the dust of the earth, in the graves are resurrected with Jesus, as Isaiah 26:19 shows:

Ephesians 4:8 - Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Ephesians 4:9 - (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Ephesians 4:10 - He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Paul cites Leviticus, etc., in reference to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the firstfruits of the harvest of souls:

1 Corinthians 15:20?- But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:21?- For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:22?- For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:23?- But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ Jesus was fulfilling his duty, in the day of His resurrection, which was the 16th day of Abib, the 'first day of the week'; which began the numbering of days unto Pentecost; as it was written, to take of the "firstfruits", and to wave them, as the "wavesheaf", before the Father, and so took those He liberated from death to Heaven, and presented them before the Father in Heaven:

Leviticus 23:15?- And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

Leviticus 23:16?- Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

Leviticus 23:17?- Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.

Leviticus 23:18?- And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD.

Leviticus 23:19?- Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings.

Leviticus 23:20?- And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.

Leviticus 23:21?- And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.

Leviticus 23:22?- And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.

Matthew records the historical record:

Jesus dies:

Matthew 27:50- Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

An earthquake happens, and the rocks are split:

Matthew 27:51- And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

The graves of specific persons around Jerusalem are thus opened as angels descended to do their task [see connecting Matthew 28:2]:

Matthew 27:52- And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

These specific persons around Jerusalem, unnamed and unnumbered do not come out of those opened graves until the 'first day of the week' when Jesus arises, and the angel Gabriel comes down clothed in the panopoly of Heaven, calling forth the Son by command of the Father, and the other earthquake happens:

Matthew 27:53- And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Notice, the second earthquake in the descent of the covering Cherub and lesser arch-angel Gabriel:

Matthew 28:1- In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Matthew 28:2- And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

Matthew 28:3- His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

Matthew 28:4- And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

The reason why history may not overtly record such an event, other than the historical account given by Matthew, and foretold by Moses in Leviticus, etc, by Isaiah, by David in the Psalms, and confirmed by Paul, etc, in scripture [KJB], may be because of the limited location, namely Jerusalem, and that the local persons in that area who were resurrected would only be recognized by loved ones [not necessarily by Romans, Samaritans, Greeks, or even strangers per se], and were not meant in general for non-believers outside of this area, but were as a proof to those in Jerusalem.? Secondarily, just as other resurrections had to be covered up by the religious leaders, such as they wanted to even kill the evidence of the resurrection, namely Lazarus [John 12:10], and to spread false reports and to bury the truth [Matthew 28:11-15], just some thoughts.

See also Psalms 24, along with Psalms 98:1-3 and combine with Colossians 2:15.

How did Jesus leave? How is Jesus going to return?

Even Acts 1 say that a 'cloud' received Him. In that 'cloud' were the angels that came and those resurrected that had already been taken up by the angels to leave with Jesus.

What that the Son speaks like the Father? That is nothing new. The Son always speaks what the Father speaks, and represents the Father, even as the Holy Ghost does the Son. Yet, I do not think you understand the structure of Revelation entirely, see that here:

https://archive.org/download/michae...mpared%2C%207%20Branch%20Candlestick.pdf

The 4 Living Creatures (Beasts) represent all the unfallen worlds, since a 'creature/beast' is a Kingdom/Nation/State authority, and 4 is the number symbolizing universality. It means all the unfallen worlds always glorify God at all times.

I repeat again:

"4 'Beasts' (Living Creatures) ? Ezekiel 1:5,13,14,15,19, 3:3, 10:1,2,3,5,6,7,8,9,15,16,18,19,20, 11:22; Revelation 4:6,8, 5:6,8,11,14, 6:1,6, 7:11, 14:3, 15:7, 19:4. See also the two cherubim on the ark, and the two greater Cherubim that Solomon made in the Stone Temple, making 4. 'Living' also means filled with the Spirit of God, see Genesis 2:7.

'Beasts' = Kingdoms, and since they are Heavenly 'Beasts:', they are representing Heavenly Kingdoms/Waters, etc. Daniel 7:17,19; Genesis 49:9; Isaiah 27:1, 46:11; Jeremiah 4:7, 5:6, 12:8, 25:38, 49:19, 50:44; Ezekiel 17:3,7, 32:2; Daniel 7:7,17,19,23, 8:20,21; Joel 1:6; Micah 5:8; Revelation 13:1,2,3,7,11,12, 17:3,7,8,11,12, etc.

'Four' = universal; Genesis 2:10; Exodus 20:8-11, etc."

No. They sing about the eternally Heavenly Trio, not 'trinity'. Yet even so, that does not say that the "one" (italics), the "he", "him" and "Lord God Almighty" is the Son.

Yes, Jesus is the 25th "elder", as Great High Priest (like unto Ezekiel 8:16, 11:1), who represents the earth, while the others represent the other unfallen worlds (the Heavenly 'GC' as it were). Their rulership is beneath Jesus' rulership, who is beneath the Father (being the Head of Christ; Eph. 5:23; Gen. 41:40).

No, the Father is glorified as the Creator in Revelation 4, for truly it was He who in Genesis was the "God [that] said ..." unto the Son, being the "God [that] made ..." for (on behalf of) the Father.

Eph_3:9? And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

The Father created all things by Jesus Christ. Thus the Father receives the glory in Revelation 4, even as the Son lives to always glorfiy the Father (Matt. 5:16; Jhn 17:1, , etc).

The Son is glorified in Revelation 5:

Rev 5:11? And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;?
Rev 5:12? Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.?
Rev 5:13? And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.?

Notice, in Revelation 5:12, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive ... glory ...", then in Revelation 5:13, "... glory be unto him that sitteth upon the throne (the Person/Being of the Father) ...", "AND" (emphasis supplied, in addition to) "... unto the Lamb ..."

Thus is Jesus glorified with the Father in Revelation 5.

The SoP/ToJ backs everything which I just shared with you if you desire to look and read. I do not necessarily post it here, because I want you to see the scriptures first, then go compare to the SoP/ToJ.

I think the 'private interpretation' has been done by yourself sister Karen, and you need to seriously reconsider your thoughts and speech, lest it lead you further astray, which is my real concern.

That is not really in disagreement, about Jesus' speaking per se, but that you have a misunderstanding of the timing of the events between chapters 4 and 5 and what is happening therein, and misunderstand some of the symbols and characters there.

Thanks for sharing your understanding of Rev. Chap. 4-5, Matthew, and your concern for the sake of caution for me.

I read the book of Revelation every day for meditation and finish the reading a few times each week, which helps me better see the prophetic message in a bird's eye view.

The 24 Elders have a significant role in the plan of redemption for humanity, as we can count numerous times of their appearance in Revelation. Whenever apostle John was stunned, one of the elders consoled him: Rev. 5:4-5 and 7:13-14. There is no text in the bible that any unfallen being is known to talk with humanity. So, I don't think the 24 elders could be representatives from the cosmic world. They couldn't be any angelic beings either because they are not created to sit on the throne of God but as ministering angels for the heirs of salvation. (See Heb. 1:14).

The 24 Elders sing new songs, which are redemption songs (Rev. 4:10-11; 5:9-10), that they must have experienced the redemption of Jesus Christ. The unfallen beings do not need the efficacy of the blood of Christ, but only the sinners on the earth. Jesus died only for the humanity and promised us to sit on the throne of God if we overcome: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne" (Rev. 3:21).

In the OT, sons of God are mentioned (Job 1:6; 2:1), but never indicates they have kings who sit on thrones. Those unfallen beings are not created to sit on the throne of God, but we have the privilege. Because we believe in the blood of Jesus that He died on behalf of us, we are made kings and priests (Rev. 1:5-6). Whenever "made us kings and priests" are mentioned in Revelation, the blood of Christ is mentioned.

"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth" (Matt. 5:5). The 24 Elders have to be the firstfruits of redemption from the earth, knowing that they sing, "we shall reign on the earth" (Rev. 5:10). Any unfallen being has no business sitting on the throne of the earth. Ultimately, the cursed ground will be annihilated, and this whole earth becomes the throne of God according to Rev. 22:3, "And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him."

I believe that my view on the 24 Elders is not a private interpretation but a biblical understanding. I hope to share more next time.