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Re: What is spiritual blindness? #62684
09/07/05 02:45 AM
09/07/05 02:45 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Old Tom: Spiritual blindness is a lack of acuity having to do with spiritual things.

John:That is about as informative as the question itself.

Tom:Thank you. We aim to please.

John:The scriptures referenced above speak of spiritual blindness.
Is there anything more difficult to perceive or convey than spiritual blindness?
Why is spiritual blindness so difficult to perceive or convey?

Tom:Perceiving one's own spiritual blindness is difficult. Perceiving someone else's is less so.

Perceiving one's own spiritual blindness is difficult because it's difficult to see what one doesn't see. How does one recognize that one's perspective is wrong? That's very difficult. People tend to latch on to whatever ideas they already have, no matter what.

I'm not sure what you mean about the conveying part.

Re: What is spiritual blindness? #62685
09/07/05 08:00 AM
09/07/05 08:00 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
quote:
Perceiving one's own spiritual blindness is difficult. Perceiving someone else's is less so.
Hmm, Could this be “quick to judge (others), slow to hear”; the basic problem?

quote:
Perceiving one's own spiritual blindness is difficult because it's difficult to see what one doesn't see. How does one recognize that one's perspective is wrong? That's very difficult. People tend to latch on to whatever ideas they already have, no matter what.
Is this because “the spiritual blindness” forms “our righteousness” (our concept of right/wrong, success, approval, etc) and therefore it is threatening to us or inconceivable for us to consider there could be anything wrong?

quote:
I'm not sure what you mean about the conveying part.
To convey; to communicate to one who is spiritually blind “the truth” so as to get the message across.

How does God do it? It is fundamentally necessary to salvation.

Re: What is spiritual blindness? #62686
09/07/05 09:42 AM
09/07/05 09:42 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline OP
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
It's not the question that people are having trouble with John, but the connection of the question with what he wrote.

I dont quite understand what this sentence means. Is it a try to explain why only John B was able to take the question at face value? Which by the way is the only meaningful way to approach new topics and questions in a forum like MSDAOL.

Re: What is spiritual blindness? #62687
09/07/05 10:31 AM
09/07/05 10:31 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline OP
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
quote:
Isaiah 42 10Sing to the LORD a new song,
his praise from the ends of the earth,
you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it,
you islands, and all who live in them.

11 Let the desert and its towns raise their voices;
let the settlements where Kedar lives rejoice.
Let the people of Sela sing for joy;
let them shout from the mountaintops.

12 Let them give glory to the LORD
and proclaim his praise in the islands.

13 The LORD will march out like a mighty man,
like a warrior he will stir up his zeal;
with a shout he will raise the battle cry
and will triumph over his enemies.

14 "For a long time I have kept silent,
I have been quiet and held myself back.
But now, like a woman in childbirth,
I cry out, I gasp and pant.

15 I will lay waste the mountains and hills
and dry up all their vegetation;
I will turn rivers into islands
and dry up the pools.

16 I will lead the blind by ways they have not known,
along unfamiliar paths I will guide them;
I will turn the darkness into light before them
and make the rough places smooth.
These are the things I will do;
I will not forsake them.

17 But those who trust in idols,
who say to images, 'You are our gods,'
will be turned back in utter shame.

quote:
Isaiah 42 18 "Hear, you deaf;
look, you blind, and see!

19 Who is blind but my servant,
and deaf like the messenger I send?
Who is blind like the one committed to me,
blind like the servant of the LORD ?

20 You have seen many things, but have paid no attention;
your ears are open, but you hear nothing."

21 It pleased the LORD
for the sake of his righteousness
to make his law great and glorious.

22 But this is a people plundered and looted,
all of them trapped in pits
or hidden away in prisons.
They have become plunder,
with no one to rescue them;
they have been made loot,
with no one to say, "Send them back."

23 Which of you will listen to this
or pay close attention in time to come?

24 Who handed Jacob over to become loot,
and Israel to the plunderers?
Was it not the LORD,
against whom we have sinned?
For they would not follow his ways;
they did not obey his law.

25 So he poured out on them his burning anger,
the violence of war.
It enveloped them in flames, yet they did not understand;
it consumed them, but they did not take it to heart.

quote:
16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

quote:
16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hoofs.

17 "Woe to the worthless shepherd,
who deserts the flock!
May the sword strike his arm and his right eye!
May his arm be completely withered,
his right eye totally blinded!"

quote:
Isaiah 35
Joy of the Redeemed
1 The desert and the parched land will be glad;
the wilderness will rejoice and blossom.
Like the crocus, 2 it will burst into bloom;
it will rejoice greatly and shout for joy.
The glory of Lebanon will be given to it,
the splendor of Carmel and Sharon;
they will see the glory of the LORD,
the splendor of our God.

3 Strengthen the feeble hands,
steady the knees that give way;

4 say to those with fearful hearts,
"Be strong, do not fear;
your God will come,
he will come with vengeance;
with divine retribution
he will come to save you."

5 Then will the eyes of the blind be opened
and the ears of the deaf unstopped.

6 Then will the lame leap like a deer,
and the mute tongue shout for joy.
Water will gush forth in the wilderness
and streams in the desert.

7 The burning sand will become a pool,
the thirsty ground bubbling springs.
In the haunts where jackals once lay,
grass and reeds and papyrus will grow.

8 And a highway will be there;
it will be called the Way of Holiness.
The unclean will not journey on it;
it will be for those who walk in that Way;
wicked fools will not go about on it. [a]

9 No lion will be there,
nor will any ferocious beast get up on it;
they will not be found there.
But only the redeemed will walk there,

10 and the ransomed of the LORD will return.
They will enter Zion with singing;
everlasting joy will crown their heads.
Gladness and joy will overtake them,
and sorrow and sighing will flee away.


Re: What is spiritual blindness? #62688
09/07/05 07:46 PM
09/07/05 07:46 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Old Tom: Perceiving one's own spiritual blindness is difficult. Perceiving someone else's is less so.

John: Hmm, Could this be “quick to judge (others), slow to hear”; the basic problem?

Tom: Yes. But I think it's a basic principle that it's easier to see faults of any sort in another than to recognize our own faults.

Old Tom: Perceiving one's own spiritual blindness is difficult because it's difficult to see what one doesn't see. How does one recognize that one's perspective is wrong? That's very difficult. People tend to latch on to whatever ideas they already have, no matter what.

John:Is this because “the spiritual blindness” forms “our righteousness” (our concept of right/wrong, success, approval, etc) and therefore it is threatening to us or inconceivable for us to consider there could be anything wrong?

Tom:Yes. I think pride is also involved.

Old Tom:I'm not sure what you mean about the conveying part.

John:To convey; to communicate to one who is spiritually blind “the truth” so as to get the message across.

How does God do it? It is fundamentally necessary to salvation.

Tom:Ok, I gotcha. I know what "convey" means; it was conveying the truth about spiritual blindess that you were getting at (as opposed to conveying spiritual blindness; I was being to literal).

God reveals the truth about Himself to us. It's His greatest challenge. The cross is His ultimate way. There seems to be so much truth in it that even grasping it in the slightest way is enough to save.

Re: What is spiritual blindness? #62689
09/07/05 07:58 PM
09/07/05 07:58 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Old Tom:It's not the question that people are having trouble with John, but the connection of the question with what he wrote.

Thomas:I dont quite understand what this sentence means.

Tom:It means that I and the others who commented didn't understand you.

Thomas:Is it a try to explain why only John B was able to take the question at face value?

Tom:No, it was that several of us were confused by your post. Maybe John is smarter than the rest of us.

Thomas:Which by the way is the only meaningful way to approach new topics and questions in a forum like MSDAOL.

Tom:You mean take them at face value?

Re: What is spiritual blindness? #62690
09/09/05 09:24 PM
09/09/05 09:24 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline OP
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Old Tom:It's not the question that people are having trouble with John, but the connection of the question with what he wrote.

Thomas:I dont quite understand what this sentence means.

Tom:It means that I and the others who commented didn't understand you.

Yet the question is as simple as can be. It is a standard english sentence without any logical jumps or hiden traps. A secound grad schoolchild can make and read and write "what is" questions. The only reason not to understand it as far as I can see must be a contious or subcontious refusal to travel down the road that finding the answere would take you.

Thomas:Is it a try to explain why only John B was able to take the question at face value?

Tom:No, it was that several of us were confused by your post. Maybe John is smarter than the rest of us.

As I said above, I find this confusion over this uncomplicated question unfathomable.

Thomas:Which by the way is the only meaningful way to approach new topics and questions in a forum like MSDAOL.

Tom:You mean take them at face value?

I was at first thinking that you guys where trying to read into the question alot of things that simply refuses to let themselves be read into this particular type of question. You got to have at least two rows to be able to read between the lines...

/Thomas

Re: What is spiritual blindness? #62691
09/10/05 12:19 AM
09/10/05 12:19 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Thomas, why don't you share your thoughts? What was your point in posting the Scriptures you did? What do you think spiritual blindness is? Do you have any thoughts regarding what John and I wrote? Was this along the lines of what you had in mind? I don't think there's much point in going on about not understanding why people were confused, do you?

Re: What is spiritual blindness? #62692
09/15/05 09:08 PM
09/15/05 09:08 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline OP
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Thomas, why don't you share your thoughts?

Ok, here comes a whole bunch of thoughts.

What was your point in posting the Scriptures you did?

Well, they start out to explore the thread name question, specially the 3 first quotes. Though I can admit that possibly one or two of the last quotes are there only becourse they are such an wonderfull testimony to Gods glory. And thats no bad reason, right?

What do you think spiritual blindness is?
My theory is that spiritual blindness is either an unwillingness and/or an inabillity to understand the message of the bible. But I did not start the thread to give answeres, I wanted to jointly explore a question.

Do you have any thoughts regarding what John and I wrote?

Yes, John was right on, exploring the depths of the question. What it is and why it is so difficult to see it in one self. I would also like to add that it is equally difficult to see it in those whom you agree with as to see it in yourself. To make an oversimplified example, a conservative person cannot see blindess in other conservatives, only in liberals. The same is ofcourse true the other way around. Also, it takes a great strenght to be able to admit that one self could be wrong in a pet idea.

Was this along the lines of what you had in mind?

Well, while the questions where raised, it never went very far. There is need for the courage to ask questions which could have less appealing responses. Ponder what would happen if the question of spiritual blindness was asked and the response was, "it is I who need the eyesalve from Jesus". Its a scary possibility.

I don't think there's much point in going on about not understanding why people were confused, do you?

Obviously not...

/Thomas

Re: What is spiritual blindness? #62693
09/15/05 10:16 PM
09/15/05 10:16 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Thanks Thomas!

quote:
Yes, John was right on, exploring the depths of the question. What it is and why it is so difficult to see it in one self. I would also like to add that it is equally difficult to see it in those whom you agree with as to see it in yourself.
This is an excellent point! Very good insight.

Old Tom:Was this along the lines of what you had in mind?

Thomas:Well, while the questions where raised, it never went very far. There is need for the courage to ask questions which could have less appealing responses. Ponder what would happen if the question of spiritual blindness was asked and the response was, "it is I who need the eyesalve from Jesus". Its a scary possibility.

Tom:Are you familiar with the 1895 General Conference sermons of A. T. Jones? He explores this topic in quite a lot of depth (in speaking of the Laodecian church; actually I'm not absolutely positive it's the 1895 GCB as opposed to 1893, but I think so; about 75% sure; 100% sure it's one or the other).

He talks about how even when we recognize that we need the eyesalve and recognize our blindness, that does not change the fact that we are just as dependent upon the Lord as before.

We all need that eyesalve, and the more we have of it, the more clearly we will see our continued need of it.

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