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Re: Beginnings of history after the flood [Re: dedication] #196321
08/23/23 11:38 PM
08/23/23 11:38 PM
G
Garywk  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
All paganism is a counterfeit of the true worship of God. They are all based upon the devil's lie to Eve that thou shalt not die. I think this is very obvious.

Most of the reason I see your behavior as insulting is that until now you have ignored my comments that I felt insulted. That is something I would never ignore even if I thought I had done nothing wrong. I would apologize at the first inkling someone gave me that I had somehow insulted them as I find that part and parcel of being a Christian.

That you finally apologized has completely soothed my ruffled feelings.

I told you I have a real problem typing. I used to type at 40+ wpm on a laptop. Now I type at less than 10. A fair amount under 10. I normally have at least a half dozen typos per line. Some times it's considerably more than that, It's why I find what I think is the main point of your post and just address it,

Re: Beginnings of history after the flood [Re: dedication] #196322
08/24/23 01:34 PM
08/24/23 01:34 PM
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Garywk  Offline
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Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Here is more from Hislop and his sources.

Quote
In the new world, while the influence of Noah prevailed, the opposite practice must
have been strongly inculcated; for a "son of God" to marry any one but a daughter of God, or
his own "sister" in the faith, must have been a misalliance and a disgrace. Hence, from a
perversion of a spiritual idea, came, doubtless, the notion of the dignity and purity of the royal
line being preserved the more intact through the marriage of royal brothers and sisters. This
was the case in Peru (PRESCOTT)
, in India (HARDY), and in Egypt (WILKINSON). Hence
the relation of Jupiter to Juno, who gloried that she was "soror et conjux"--"sister and wife"--of
her husband. Hence the same relation between Isis and her husband Osiris, the former of
whom is represented as "lamenting her brother Osiris." (BUNSEN) For the same reason, no
doubt, was Rhea, made the sister of her husband Kronos, to show her divine dignity and
equality.


The following quote is from William Prescott's book History on the Conquest of Peru on the ancient history and rites of the Incas.

Quote
Besides the Sun, the Incas acknowledged various objects of worship in some way or other connected with this principal deity. Such was the Moon, his sister-wife; the Stars, revered as part of her heavenly train,- though the fairest of them, Venus, known to the Peruvians by the name of Chasca, or the "youth with the long and curling locks," was adored as the page of the Sun, whom he attends so closely in his rising and in his setting.


I was unable to identify a Hardy who was a historian and would have been a contemporary, or lived earlier than, Hislop.

Unfortunately I couldn't find any free books by Wilkinson but he is known as the father of British Egyptology.and wrote several books on the ancient Egyptians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gardner_Wilkinson

Last edited by Garywk; 08/24/23 02:40 PM.
Re: Beginnings of history after the flood [Re: dedication] #196324
08/24/23 03:25 PM
08/24/23 03:25 PM
G
Garywk  Offline
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Active Member 2023

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Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Here is more in support of Hislop's writings.

https://therealsamizdat.com/2014/12/25/osiris-tammuz-adonis-attis/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphrodite_Urania

Quote
Even in the very heavens the God of Providence has constrained His enemies to
inscribe a testimony to the great Scriptural truth proclaimed by the Hebrew prophet, that a
"virgin should bring forth a son, whose name should be called Immanuel." The constellation
Virgo, as admitted by the most learned astronomers, was dedicated to Ceres (Dr. JOHN
HILL, in his Urania, and Mr. A. JAMIESON, in his Celestial Atlas), who is the same as the
great goddess of Babylon, for Ceres was worshipped with the babe at her breast
(SOPHOCLES, Antigone), even as the Babylonian goddess was.
Virgo was originally the
Assyrian Venus, the mother of Bacchus or Tammuz. Virgo then, was the Virgin Mother.
Isaiah's prophecy was carried by the Jewish captives to Babylon, and hence the new title
bestowed upon the Babylonian goddess.



Last edited by Garywk; 08/24/23 03:26 PM.
Re: Beginnings of history after the flood [Re: dedication] #196325
08/24/23 06:35 PM
08/24/23 06:35 PM
G
Garywk  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Here is still more in support of Hislop. This is an on line book by Diodorus Siculus who was a Greek historian about the time of Christ.

https://www.theoi.com/Text/DiodorusSiculus4A.html

Last edited by Garywk; 08/24/23 06:39 PM.
Re: Beginnings of history after the flood [Re: dedication] #196326
08/24/23 09:27 PM
08/24/23 09:27 PM
dedication  Online Content OP
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
Why is vindicating Hislop so important to you?
Alexander Hislop (1807 ? 13 March 1865) was a Free Church of Scotland minister. He was the son of Stephen Hislop (died 1837), a mason by occupation and an elder of the Relief Church.

On a different line of thought-- but still concerning Hislop's book.

I finally realized why Hislop's book is so offensive to a lot of people, and it's not because they hate truth.
It's because the history he presents supports the horrible slave trade that was part of America's history.

How does Hislop support this?, you might ask?
He spends pages vilifying Cush, collecting every fragment, and allusions, semantic, historic and legendary supposed evidence that Cush was the great evil one, who along with his son, Nimrod is the source of all the evil classified as paganism.

Whither he meant to or not, he presented the reasoning for people to accept the lie that over the centuries have plunged thousands people who were believed to be the descendants of Cush, into being regarded as slaves to the whites by the decree of God.

The Biblical story used:
Quote
9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father and told his two brothers outside....
9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
9:25 And he said, Cursed [be] Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
9:26 And he said, Blessed [be] the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
9:27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant

The curse was placed on Canaan, the fourth son of Ham. Canaan's descendants were Canaanites, and yes, they were wicked, as the Bible documents.

Truly one of the most unfortunate instances of the misinterpretation of Scripture comes from this passage of the curse of Canaan. For some reason people have assumed the curse was on all of Ham's descendants. BUT the very reason it was NOT placed on Ham (who was the actual culprit in the disrespect that brought forth the curse) is because not all of Ham's descendants were to receive the curse. The curse was limited to one line of descendants of Ham, Canaan, it was not upon all of them.

The curse was NOT put on Ham's other sons, Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut.
This is a fact the people whose heritage is from Africa, find to be extremely helpful and important.
Yet, for centuries people excused enslaving the descendants of Cush, (and Mizraim and Phut) thinking that was God's will.

So Hislop takes 100's of snippets from a lot of "sources" and weaves his story --
sounds impressive, but what is the actual context from which those snippets are taken?
That is the problem when taking bits and pieces from many sources -- one can weave a story.

Re: Beginnings of history after the flood [Re: Garywk] #196327
08/24/23 11:28 PM
08/24/23 11:28 PM
dedication  Online Content OP
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
Originally Posted by Garywk
Here is still more in support of Hislop. This is an on line book by Diodorus Siculus who was a Greek historian about the time of Christ.

Diodorus Siculus


This is what that link tells us.
Quote
Diodorus attempts to convert the stories of myth into factual histories. To this end he concocts a variety of stories to rationalise and explain away the fantastical elements of myth. Many of these are as far-fetched as the original stories themselves. Nevertheless, in spite of these reworkings, his work does preserve many stories of myth not found elsewhere.

Diodorus is not what I call a reliable source on factual history.
If Hislop uses him as a reference it just proves he's obviously building his suppositions of myths and legends on the suppositions of another who is just guessing and making things up to fit the legends.

Re: Beginnings of history after the flood [Re: dedication] #196329
08/25/23 06:38 AM
08/25/23 06:38 AM
G
Garywk  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Originally Posted by dedication
Originally Posted by Garywk
Here is still more in support of Hislop. This is an on line book by Diodorus Siculus who was a Greek historian about the time of Christ.

Diodorus Siculus


This is what that link tells us.
Quote
Diodorus attempts to convert the stories of myth into factual histories. To this end he concocts a variety of stories to rationalise and explain away the fantastical elements of myth. Many of these are as far-fetched as the original stories themselves. Nevertheless, in spite of these reworkings, his work does preserve many stories of myth not found elsewhere.

Diodorus is not what I call a reliable source on factual history.
If Hislop uses him as a reference it just proves he's obviously building his suppositions of myths and legends on the suppositions of another who is just guessing and making things up to fit the legends.




I don't see how Diodorus telling the ancient myths is held against him. It is impossible to tell a factual story about pagan gods as they do not exist. He's just far more acquainted with them because he lived much closer to the time the legends were created than we do.

Re: Beginnings of history after the flood [Re: dedication] #196330
08/25/23 07:20 AM
08/25/23 07:20 AM
G
Garywk  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Originally Posted by dedication
Why is vindicating Hislop so important to you?
Alexander Hislop (1807 ? 13 March 1865) was a Free Church of Scotland minister. He was the son of Stephen Hislop (died 1837), a mason by occupation and an elder of the Relief Church.

On a different line of thought-- but still concerning Hislop's book.

I finally realized why Hislop's book is so offensive to a lot of people, and it's not because they hate truth.
It's because the history he presents supports the horrible slave trade that was part of America's history.

How does Hislop support this?, you might ask?
He spends pages vilifying Cush, collecting every fragment, and allusions, semantic, historic and legendary supposed evidence that Cush was the great evil one, who along with his son, Nimrod is the source of all the evil classified as paganism.

Whither he meant to or not, he presented the reasoning for people to accept the lie that over the centuries have plunged thousands people who were believed to be the descendants of Cush, into being regarded as slaves to the whites by the decree of God.

The Biblical story used:
Quote
9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father and told his two brothers outside....
9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
9:25 And he said, Cursed [be] Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
9:26 And he said, Blessed [be] the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
9:27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant

The curse was placed on Canaan, the fourth son of Ham. Canaan's descendants were Canaanites, and yes, they were wicked, as the Bible documents.

Truly one of the most unfortunate instances of the misinterpretation of Scripture comes from this passage of the curse of Canaan. For some reason people have assumed the curse was on all of Ham's descendants. BUT the very reason it was NOT placed on Ham (who was the actual culprit in the disrespect that brought forth the curse) is because not all of Ham's descendants were to receive the curse. The curse was limited to one line of descendants of Ham, Canaan, it was not upon all of them.

The curse was NOT put on Ham's other sons, Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut.
This is a fact the people whose heritage is from Africa, find to be extremely helpful and important.
Yet, for centuries people excused enslaving the descendants of Cush, (and Mizraim and Phut) thinking that was God's will.

So Hislop takes 100's of snippets from a lot of "sources" and weaves his story --
sounds impressive, but what is the actual context from which those snippets are taken?
That is the problem when taking bits and pieces from many sources -- one can weave a story.



I'm well aware of who Hislop was. I used to have your prejudice against those of other faiths too. I have come to understand it is unmerited though. Ellen White tells us there are more of God's people outside the church than there is in it. She says in one place that not one in twenty are ready for Jesus to come. In anther she says not one in one hundred are doing the missionary work necessary to prepare them to meet Jesus. If things were that bad in her day what are they like in our church today with all the winds of doctrine and political wokeness blowing through it? She also says that the members will be scattered like leaves in the wind and that multitudes from outside the church will take their place.

Here is a link to the testimony of an Episcopalian minister. This man was used by God in very powerful ways. The number of miracles in his life is testimony to the power of God working through him. Oh, I know most Adventists will say it was the devil working through him but I don't believe that. He had a genuine love for God and it shines through him. There is a you tube user named bibleguy who has hundreds of videos from his church services in which he leads out in congregational singing and his choice of hymns and comments to his congregation during those videos demonstrates a love for God rarely seen in SDA churches. I have been watching those videos now for months and I love them. The love for God shines out through in his congregation too. They are a Spirit filled group. When they sing they sing sometimes with an attitude of prayer and sometimes with an enthusiasm I've never seen in an SDA church.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbDA41auS2E

Last edited by Garywk; 08/25/23 07:33 AM.
Re: Beginnings of history after the flood [Re: dedication] #196333
08/25/23 01:19 PM
08/25/23 01:19 PM
dedication  Online Content OP
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
??????
OK, I read through the above twice.
1. My objections are NOT based on some kind of prejudice against people of other denominations.

2. Seems like (I could be wrong) you are avoiding the issues and trying to switch the focus on other matters -- like Adventists aren't perfect therefore that somehow vindicates Hislop.

2. Hislop lived in the early 1800's, died in 1865

3. In the 1800's they didn't have video's, so I know those 100's of video's did NOT show Hislop.

4. Just because a pastor McConnel and his group love the Lord, doesn't mean Hislop is did, or that Hislop's book is truth.

5. And most important -- show me from Hislop's own writings where he gives honor and glory to Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior.
I see a lot of indoctrination into paganism in his book, till one can't even see branches and flowers without having them associated with pagan ideas if one reads his book. (Yes it's sadly true pagan practices were adopted into Christianity BUT Christianity still has it's bases in truth)
But I haven't seen Hislop give honor or glory to Christ Jesus as our Lord and Savior. I haven't read all his book -- so it's up to you to show me, just one chapter (not just a passing sentence) but a section where he gives honor and glory to Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

Re: Beginnings of history after the flood [Re: dedication] #196334
08/25/23 02:43 PM
08/25/23 02:43 PM
G
Garywk  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Originally Posted by dedication
??????
OK, I read through the above twice.
1. My objections are NOT based on some kind of prejudice against people of other denominations.

2. Seems like (I could be wrong) you are avoiding the issues and trying to switch the focus on other matters -- like Adventists aren't perfect therefore that somehow vindicates Hislop.

2. Hislop lived in the early 1800's, died in 1865

3. In the 1800's they didn't have video's, so I know those 100's of video's did NOT show Hislop.

4. Just because a pastor McConnel and his group love the Lord, doesn't mean Hislop is did, or that Hislop's book is truth.

5. And most important -- show me from Hislop's own writings where he gives honor and glory to Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior.
I see a lot of indoctrination into paganism in his book, till one can't even see branches and flowers without having them associated with pagan ideas if one reads his book. (Yes it's sadly true pagan practices were adopted into Christianity BUT Christianity still has it's bases in truth)
But I haven't seen him give honor or glory to Christ Jesus as our Lord and Savior. I haven't read all his book -- so it's up to you to show me, just one chapter (not just a sentence) a section where he gives honor and glory to Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.


Where did you get the idea those videos have anything to do with Hislop? I said what they are about. Did you not believe me?

Also. where did you get the idea that Hislop has anything to do with James Mcconnell? I see no connection other than they were both non Adventists.

I also have to wonder at your statement about indoctrination so pervasive that you can't see branches or flowers without seeing paganism in them. I find that really strange as he only mentions branches and ivy a few times and never mentions flowers that I know of. He does so speaking about parallels between a pagan god of different nations.

It's true he doesn't mention Christ but once or twice but He and Christianity aren't the subject of Hislop's book. Considering the subject of the book I'm not surprised. To tell that truth I don't see Noorbergen mention Jesus in his book either.

And Mcconnell and his congregation don't mean Hislop's book is false either. I see a lot of emotion but not a lot of solid reasoning

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