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You're conflating two separate issues. Speaking in church is not the same thing as being a minister ordained by the church. That is not scriptural, but the leadership of women is. God has never shied away from woman leaders. Ellen White was not the first woman prophet by a long shot.

We also see the fruits of women being ordained today as many of the women pastors are leading out in putting homosexuals in leadership positions in the church. This is an extension of the women's lib movement and we know what that has brought about in the world. Nothing good. Jesus said by their fruits ye shall know them, and the fruit of ordaining women as ministers movement is becoming very clear as is its source.

Interesting --

1. I agree the verse "women should be silent in church" (1 Cor. 14:34-35) has to be interpreted according to it's cultural/situation and broader context. -- which the Adventist pioneers did.

2. But 1 Cor. 14:34-35 is by it's very nature, being linked to 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1:6. Thinking, well, we will let women speak in church, but cut it short with our interpretation of Paul's counsel to Timothy and Titus, and restrict women from any formal recognition. BUT those texts to Timothy and Titus aren't even addressing women. They are saying a church leader should not be a polygamist. We know those texts are not saying a church leader must have a wife, for we find singles in ministry in the Bible, That wasn't the problem. Paul himself didn't have a wife at this point. (1 Cor.7:8) The problem being addressed was polygamy. A moral issue of multiple spouses; moral issues listed should keep one out of leadership.

3. If people can see the rational for interpreting 1 Cor. 14:34-35 in it's cultural/situational broader context, thus dismissing it's very plain and direct words, why can't they see the same in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1:6, where there are NO PLAIN words that women aren't included?

4. Bible has examples of women in leadership positions.
Romans 16:1 identifies Phoebe as a deacon of the church. The original word here used is "deacon" and refers to a Christian designated to serve with the overseers of a church in various ways.
This same word is used in Phil 1:1 and in 1 Tim 3:8,12 to identify leaders of the church.

Priscilla is also identified, along with her husband, Aquila in Romans 16:3, as a leader of a house church and "my co-worker in Christ Jesus".
The wife, Priscilla, is here named before the husband (as in Acts 18:18 and in 2 Timothy 4:19 ), signify she is probably the more prominent and helpful to the Church.

5. There are plenty of male pastors promoting objectional things. We could quickly disqualify the whole male species from the ministry if we focus on some who misuse their positions to take sexual advantage of their parishioners. Women pastors for the most part, do not agree with ordaining practicing homosexuals. Again there's the attempt to LINK the ministry with the objectional in order to denounce it.

6. Another attempted link is thinking women seeking to be treated fairly and not as inferiors, is bad. Yes, I agree that women's lib has overstepped, especially on their attacks on family life, but we sure appreciate some of the victories that have been won by brave women willing to stand up to current restrictions. We now have women doctors!!!!! We can own our property even if our husband has died. We can be paid for equal work, not get half the wage just because we are women. It's not all bad. And though not a women's lib -- EGW did fight for some of these rights for women!

So, we should interpret the Bible according to the culture of the time. I disagree. It means anything in the Bible is open for reinterpretation according to cultural issues. We could say the same with Ellen White's writings and just say times have changed so she's out of date. This is exactly what Sunday keepers do with the fourth commandment. There's a new covenant because the old was outdated.

No, thanks. You want to do that and use that excuse, you're welcome to it, but I will never agree with you.

We have talked about this in the long past: Is ordination Biblical? Why ordain anyone?

So why do you do it with 1 Cor. 14:34-35 ????

In fact 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1:6 can easily be explained WITHOUT changing anything.
But 1 Cor. 14:34-35 is the one you as well as the pioneers push aside.
How do you explain that inconsistancy?

I don't remember discussing this with you. You'll have to refresh my memory.

I put it into the context of Ephesians 2 about loving our wives and 1 Corinthians.



1 Corinthians 11 has quite a bit to say about men and women in church and Paul points out that woman comes from man, not the other way around. It seems very important to him so I think it should be taken into consideration in all church offices.

Also in 1 Titus 2 Paul points out that it is the woman who first sinned and then was the cause of Adam's fall. It is for that reason he e says women are not to usurp authority over a man. His words not mine, but scripture is the authority.

1. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is not taken literally as it reads, by you or the Adventist church pioneers. Woman don't have to be silent in church, they can talk, and share verbally.



2. 1 Corinthians 11:3 -- that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman the man; and the head of Christ God.
Christ is the head of the church.
The man is NOT the head of the church. Men need to realize this, they are not the boss of the church.
The man is to be the head of their own family, provide and care for their family, but NOT as an overlord either, but to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it.

If ordination means being "the head" of the church, then ordination has lost it's meaning, and man (male or female) have usurped Christ's position.


3. Gary wrote: "Paul points out that woman comes from man, not the other way around."

Eve came from Adam to stand by his side and help (work with) him,
but every male after Adam received their life through a woman. Paul says that as well.
1 Cor. 11:11-12 Nevertheless neither is the man independent of the woman, nor is the woman independent of the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

4. 1 Tim. 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression... she shall be saved in childbearing
Adam was not deceived, he sinned willfully, knowing he was in direct violation to God's command,
he had the greater sin. Woman would be honored by giving birth to the Savior. Through woman salvation would be brought into the world. And the first to proclaim the risen Savior were women.

None of the above say the church can't officially recognize and set women apart for ministry.

That is a good question!
Why ordain anyone since the important thing is that God is the one who calls, qualifies and anoints His workers? Christ calls and spiritually ordains every Christian for ministry.

I think there are two legitimate reasons for the church to ordain (officially recognize people in leadership):

1. Recognition that the person represents the church
Adventists basically began ordaining ministers to bring some order into confusion. Back in those early days all kinds of people were preaching and teaching claiming to belong to the movement, but they were off on different theological roads. There was a need to verify who actually was a recognized Seventh-day Adventist preacher.

2. Government legalities
Secondly, the government sort of demands a person to be legally set in place by ordination before they can perform marriage and act in other legal capacities representing the church.


WHAT IT SHOULD NOT BE

1. It is not to be a sacramental view of ordination. Investing the person with some holy power. Convey some change in the character and innate abilities of the person.

2. Nor a clericalization (i.e., separation between clergy and members, instead of facilitators to get everyone working together to further God's work.

If we went back to the original reasons for ordinations there won't be all this conflict over ordaining women to ministries
-- to designate, officially recognize and bless people to ministries which they feel called to do, instead of having just one "ordination" which covers basically ALL ministries and simply elevates the initiates to a higher status of holy power, --

Yes, Eve came from Adam and was to be his equal, but sin changed the relationship. God said it did. God pronounced curses on all three involved including the serpent. I've never quite understood the curse upon the serpent as it goes far beyond how we see animals today. It implies the understanding of right and wrong and the power of choice.



So, should we ignore this sanction of God upon women? If so, why? Men had a sanction upon them too. We are all suffering from sin and what got us into this mess was the ignoring of something that seems very insignificant to humanity. I just don't see how we can say relations between men and women are the same as before sin. It just isn't true.