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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#198246
11/29/24 09:14 AM
11/29/24 09:14 AM
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OP
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There are four pillars in Revelation.
The seven churches (1st pillar)
The seven seals (2nd pillar)
The seven trumpets (3rd pillar)
The seven plagues (4th pillar)
Before the sealing of God (2nd pillar), there "must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1) event, which is the investigative judgment in heaven. The Ch. 4-5 is a vision of the throne room.
I suggest to read the first seal and then the first church, respectively each element of the second pillar to the first pillar.
We notice there appears an interlude between the sixth and 7th seals, which is Ch. 7, where the vision has a prominence of the seventh day Sabbath.
We find a similar structure in the 3rd pillar that also has an interlude between the sixth and the 7th trumpet, which is Ch. 10, where the advent movement proclaims the Sabbath truth.
Therefore, the visions of Ch. 7 and 10 bring our attention to the Sabbath, implying that the restoration of the Sabbath must occur prior to Jesus' Second Coming.
Before God pour out the seven last plagues (4th pillar), He will warn the judgment coming by the seven trumpets' message (3rd pillar).
I suggest to read the first plague and then the first trumpet to discover complementary understanding and do the same all the way to the seventh element. Undoubtedly each element relates to respective element.
The structure and overview testify to careful student that 4th pillar of the seven plagues correspond to the seven trumpet (3rd pillar), as of God's waring before the wrath of God poured out to the wicked(4th pillar).
Therefore, the visions of Ch. 12, 13, and 14 unmask Satan's identity for humanity to make ultimate fateful decision whom they want to pay allegiance.
Picture in mind the trajectory of the four pillars:
The Seven Churches => Judgment => The Seven Seals. Reverse perspective also provides clear understanding. Before the sealing of God => judgment in heaven "must be" happening => the sealing completes in the seven churches (144,000).
The Seven Plagues => Satan's identity unmasked => The Seven Trumpets are for the warning of the Seven Plagues. Reversely, the Seven Trumpets proclaim "woe, woe, woe" "hereafter" => the three angels' message unmask Satan's ID => the Seven Plagues fall.
Between the 1st and 2nd pillars the prominent message is the Sabbath(Ch. 7).
Between the 3rd and 4th pillars the prominent message is the Sabbath (Ch. 10).
Blessings,
Karen
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#198270
12/08/24 09:29 PM
12/08/24 09:29 PM
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OP
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In one aspect, the book of Revelation is presented in the context of judgment. Four types of judgment are mentioned:
1). Investigative Judgment (Rev. Ch 1-7): this judgment pertains to saints 2). Verdict Judgment (Rev. Ch 8-14): this pertains to wicked 3). Execution Judgment (Rev. Ch 15-19) : this pertains to the most wicked 4). Review of God's judgment (Rev. Ch 20-22): this pertains to righteous
The purpose of the Investigative Judgment is for the sealing of the saints. The blood of Christ Jesus covers all the repentant sinners: saints are judged worthy of His blood. The verdict judgment is the call for repentance to wicked. In God's mercy and calling(seven trumpets), the wicked might repent to escape the punishment of the execution judgment. Notice that the execution judgment is brief and concise in description-it needs no expounding, but the warning of the seven trumpets are extensive and terrifying. Lastly the redeemed saints will be able to review the judgment of God during the millennium.
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#198278
12/10/24 10:15 AM
12/10/24 10:15 AM
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OP
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The verdict judgment is the seven trumpets, which corresponds to the seven plagues.
Look at the intricate correlation between the seven trumpets and the seven plagues below:
First Plague : Bowl pours out upon the earth ---- First Trumpet : Hail, fire, mixed with blood fall on the earth
Second Plague : Bowl pours out into the sea ---- Second Trumpet : Burning mountain is thrown into the sea
Third Plague : Bowl pours out on rivers and springs of water ---- Third Trumpet : Blazing star falls on the rivers and springs of water
Fourth Plague : Sun scorches people with great heat ---- Fourth Trumpet : 1/3 of heavenly bodies darken
Fifth Plague : Spiritual Darkness ---- Fifth Trumpet : Spiritual Darkness
Sixth Plague : Euphrates river dries up ---- Sixth Trumpet : Four angels bound at the river Euphrates are released
Seventh Plague : Loud voice from the temple in heaven says, "It is done." ---- Seventh Trumpet : Temple of God in heaven is thrown open
The Seven Trumpets imagery converges with the physical events of the Seven Plagues, and this demands our careful study.
In the first trumpet, earth will receive the judgment of hail and fire mixed with blood, which has a connotation of deadly impact. This corresponds to the first plague, wherein earth will be plagued with pestilence.
As we compare each trumpet to the plague, we see the correlation. EG White describes this connection: "Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth" (Selected Message, Vol 3 p. 426).
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#198279
12/10/24 04:52 PM
12/10/24 04:52 PM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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Roughly 2000 years ago John the apostle wrote: 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is a hand. A serious question in all this "reconsideration" is how does it reveal to us Jesus Christ and His testimony? A testimony that enables us to overcome the dragon by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony. Rev. 12:11 How can turning Revelation from a historicist view point, into a futuristic view point make it a reliable prophecy? There needs to be a foundation in order to find understanding, Has anyone considered that the trumpets lay out the history for us to look back upon and learn, because, yes, HISTORY will repeat, (not prophecy but history repeats) and we all know the saying, it is those who refuse to learn from history who are bound to repeat it. Each of the trumpets reveals something about people's response or rather distortion or rejection of the gospel, throughout history and it's non-redemptive and destructive results. Now it is true that in the end every form of evil power will unite to overthrow truth. But what are these key forms of power? I believe the trumpets have already revealed them. "Every form of evil is to spring into intense activity. Evil angels unite their powers with evil men, and as they have been in constant conflict and attained an experience in the best modes of deception and battle, and have been strengthening for centuries, they will not yield the last great final contest without a desperate struggle." {Mar 257.4} What are the "modes of deception" that evil angels have developed as the best modes of deception over the centuries? The fact that the plagues allude to them all being active in the last struggle does NOT mean they were not developed in historic sequence in the past. We don't have to destroy their relevance in the past, to know every form of evil is to spring into intense activity in the end. However, as we look at the historic progression it can "remind us that other believers also have drunk of the cup and been baptized with the baptism. He who sustained these early witnesses to the truth will not forsake His people in the final conflict." {CTr 314.2} Revelation is very much about Christ and the sanctuary truths -- but where in this reconsideration is Christ, as He takes His place as our high priest, and pours out the first Pentecost upon His church, and begins His ministry in the heavenly sanctuary? Rev. 4 and 5 is not about judgement, it's all about Christ beginning the sanctuary message of DELIVERANCE. It begins with great consternation (NOT about who will execute judgment on sinners, as all sinners are already doomed due to their sin) the consternation shows that all hope of salvation is gone if no one is found to open the book of covenant. Then Jesus Who has completed the sacrifice, ratifying the covenant with His own blood, opened the door of salvation. "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain, for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." Everyone rejoices with great joy, singing His praises day and night! Revelation 8:2-5 also gives an outline of Christ's whole sanctuary work. Beginning with His work in the Holy Place before the altar of incense as He mediates for the saints, then He takes the coals from the altar and puts them in the censor. Something that was done every year by the high priest BEFORE He entered the Most Holy Place. He would carry the censor with Him into the Holy Place, as it poured forth smoke of incense throughout the Most Holy. It's only once that phase ministry is done that the censor is cast down . Thus we see Christ, first in Holy Place, then preparing to enter the Most Holy, it's only once He is finished and comes out, that the censor is thrown down. And notice: The angels were given the trumpets already in verse 2. These are two sequences, that happen at the same time, they run parallel. All the time the trumpets are warning people to turn away from evil, Christ is ministering in the sanctuary, mediating for the people, it's not until the END of the seventh trumpet that we see both these sequences ending with thunder, lightning, earthquake, etc. (Rev. 8:5 and Rev. 11:19) They start together and end together. Revelation covers the WHOLE sanctuary doctrine, repeatedly, not just the investigative judgment. The churches, seals, and trumpets all announce the investigative judgment at the end of their sequence, they cover both the time of Christ's ministry in the holy and then the Most Holy. Churches -- 6th church, Christ moves to open one door of the sanctuary and closes the first. Indicating the time of the great disappointment when Christ moves from the Holy to the Most Holy. The seventh is the church living during the investigative judgment who are either "spewed out" if not with Christ, or promised to sit with Christ on His throne if they cherish His presence here on earth. Seals -- 5th seal has martyrs, who have not yet received judgment, they are crying out for judgment, given "white robes" told to wait. The 6th seal reveals the signs announcing the beginning of judgement, and revealing the outcome, with the unsealed running in terror from Christ, while the sealed receive salvation and stand on the sea of glass. 7th Trumpet -- the time has come of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward... the Most Holy Place is opened to view. They all cover the full time from Christ's return to heaven until His second coming. THE ROLE OF THE LAST CHURCH Where is the prophecy concerning the development of the last church in all of this? Did God raise a last church with a special message? That prophecy is there in a powerful way, IF one sees things in a historicist manner. The church with the three angel's message, comes into existence AFTER the sixth trumpet. The great disappointment, the formation of the Adventist church, and it's sanctuary message, as well as it's 3 angel message, is clearly revealed in Rev. 10 and the first part of 11. God's last church (Seventh-day Adventist church) is formed after the 1260 years have ended. This is all clearly confirmed in Ellen White's writings, who also clearly tells us the seventh trumpet began in 1844. She identifies the "seven thunders" in Rev. 10 as beginning in 1842, involved in raising awareness of the coming "judgment hour" (ushering in, and obviously part of the seventh trumpet). The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God, most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. The first and second angels' messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work. This is represented by the angel standing with one foot on the sea, proclaiming with a most solemn oath that time should be no longer. {1MR 99.3} This time which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, {1MR 99.3}
The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament." Revelation 11:19. The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things," this apartment was opened only upon the great Day of Atonement for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of His testament was seen points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844 as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement. {GC 432-433}
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#198284
12/11/24 10:36 AM
12/11/24 10:36 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 519
Michigan, US
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Isa. 34:16 "Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them."
Bible teaches us how to study the Word of God.
The sixth trumpet says of "these plagues" (Rev. 9:20) which directs our mind and thought to link to the sixth plague.
"These plagues" of the sixth trumpet are fire, smoke, and brimstone (Rev. 20:17, 18).
These plagues are poured out to the three unclean spirits of the sixth plague.
Rev. 16:13 "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet."
The dragon represents paganism.
The beast represents Papacy.
The false prophet represents Apostate Christianity.
God clearly made known that the three unclean spirits will received the wrath of God as follow:
Paganism = by fire Papacy = by smoke Apostate Christianity = by brimstone
The fifth plague says that the seat of the beast will receive the wrath of God.
Rev. 16:10-11 "And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."
The seat of the beast represents the Papacy. His kingdom became full of spiritual darkness and will not repent even at their pains and sores of corruptions.
The beast is from the bottomless pit.
Rev. 11:7 and 17:8
"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:"
The beast always fight against the Word of God and is the messenger of darkness. The beast is the fallen star of the fifth trumpet that causes the sun and the air darkened. Notice the ten characteristics of the fallen star in the fifth trumpet.
1)Their shape are like horses prepared for battle 2)They wear crowns like gold 3)Their faces are like the faces of men 4)They have hair like the hair of women 5)Their teeth are like the teeth of lions 6)Their breastplates are made of iron 7)The sound of their wings is like the sound of chariots 8)They have tails like scorpions 9)Their tails have stingers 10)They have a king over them
The meanings as follow:
1)' They are prepared for spiritual war 2)' They intended to conquer 3)' They are intelligent 4)' They are seductive 5)' They have destructive capability 6)' They are invulnerable 7)' They are swift in battle 8)' Their mission is to hurt men 9)' They force men to seek death (spiritual torment) 10)' They have a king (ruler of the kingdom of spiritual darkness)
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#198285
12/12/24 12:19 AM
12/12/24 12:19 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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The beast is from the bottomless pit.
Rev. 11:7 and 17:8
"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:" Are you saying the beast in Revelation 11:7 who was very active in the French Revolution, having risen up around 1789, is the same as the Roman Papal beast that received a fatal wound and was not for a time ? At the end of the 1260 years, (42 prophetic months) the papal beast received that deadly wound, and another power of Satanic origin arose. It's not the same. It's another power of Satanic origin. he period when the two witnesses were to prophesy clothed in sackcloth ended in 1798. As they were approaching the termination of their work in obscurity, war was to be made upon them by the power represented as ?the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit.? In many of the nations of Europe the powers that ruled in Church and State had for centuries been controlled by Satan, through the medium of the papacy. But here is brought to view a new manifestation of Satanic power. {GC88 268.3}
It had been Rome's policy, under a profession of reverence for the Bible, to keep it locked up in an unknown tongue, and hidden away from the people. Under her rule the witnesses prophesied, ?clothed in sackcloth.? But another power?the beast from the bottomless pit?was to arise to make open, avowed war upon the Word of God. {GC88 269.1} According to the words of the prophet, then, a little before the year 1798 some power of Satanic origin and character would rise to make war upon the Bible. And in the land where the testimony of God's two witnesses should thus be silenced, there would be manifest the atheism of the Pharaoh, and the licentiousness of Sodom. {GC88 269.3} This prophecy has received a most exact and striking fulfillment in the history of France..... ?The beast that ascended out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.? The atheistical power that ruled in France during the Revolution and the reign of terror, did wage such a war upon the Bible as the world had never witnessed. The Word of God was prohibited by the national assembly. Bibles were collected and publicly burned with every possible manifestation of scorn. The law of God was trampled under foot. The institutions of the Bible were abolished. The weekly rest-day was set aside, and in its stead every tenth day was devoted to reveling and blasphemy. {GC88 273.2} All religious worship was prohibited, except that of liberty and the country. {GC 274.1} So how could this beast in Revelation 11 be the papal beast? A lot of things come out of the bottomless pit. Satan doesn't work only through one agency. Spiritualism and mesmerism is from the devil, from the bottomless pit. {EW 21.2} Atheisms is from the bottomless pit The bottomless pit is the pit of ruin into which sin plunges all who follow after sin. It is only through Jesus that we can escape it's destiny. In the end Satan will be locked in this bottomless pit..Left there to survey the utter ruin his idea of government which had utterly destroyed all of God's perfect creation.
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#198289
12/13/24 07:21 PM
12/13/24 07:21 PM
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OP
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In Revelation chapter 13, a beast is introduced; throughout the chapter, it is consistently referred to as "the beast."
Revelation 13:1 states, "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns. Upon his horns were ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."
This beast that arises from the sea represents the papal beast within the context of Revelation 13.
Like the seven churches, the beast ascended out of the bottomless pit has a historical entity of past, present, and future.
The beast "was, and is not," and will ultimately face destruction (Rev. 17:8). The concepts of past, present, and future align with the seven church periods as the beast seeks to overcome them. This beast is depicted with seven heads and ten horns, each adorned with crowns on the ten horns. The imagery surrounding the beast signifies its desire to take the crowns bestowed upon the pure woman, representing the seven churches.
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#198301
12/16/24 09:26 AM
12/16/24 09:26 AM
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OP
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The beast of Revelation opposes the pure woman who wears a crown with twelve stars.
This pure woman symbolizes the bride of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 2:10 states, "...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
The beast receives its intelligence and power from the dragon, which has seven heads, ten horns, and crowns on each of its heads.
Revelation 13:2 says, "...and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."
In Revelation 12:3, we read, "...and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."
The dragon intends to claim the crown of the pure woman, using the intellect of its seven heads, which parallels the seven church periods.
The beast also has seven heads and ten horns. It represents the Papacy, which has received the dragon's intelligence and exercises the powers represented by the ten horns, signifying ten crowns on those horns.
Revelation 13:1 describes this beast: "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."
The beast has existed since the beginning of the Apostolic period and will continue to the end times, blaspheming God.
Revelation 13:6 states, "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven."
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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered
[Re: Karen Y]
#198315
12/18/24 11:01 PM
12/18/24 11:01 PM
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OP
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Who are the four angels mentioned in the Book of Revelation?
Why are they holding back the four winds from the four corners of the earth?
If they have been commanded to hold back these winds, is there a subsequent command in Revelation to release them?
The golden altar's four horns symbolize the background of the sanctuary, where the voice of God commands.
Rev. Chapter 7 introduces four angels: Rev. 7:1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."
Rev. 7:2 "And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,"
Notice that v. 1 introduces FORU ANGELS and v. 2 refers to THE FOUR ANGELS. Verse 3 provides the reason for holding. Rev. 7:3 "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." The reason for holding the four winds of the earth is to seal God's people. The seal of God symbolizes the Sabbath. That means when the Sabbath has been proclaimed to the world, an end point will come to terminate the holding of the winds.
THE FOUR ANGELS appear again in Rev. 9:14 "Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates."
The voice of God from the temple commands THE FOUR ANGELS to loose their hold.
Rev. 9:13 "And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God." (This voice calls for a response to Jesus' intercession and signifies the end of God's mercy, making the end of His sealing work.)
Follow the pattern of using a definite article when introducing something. First, present the item without a definite article, and then connect it with 'the.' For example: beast, the beast; four angels, the four angels; four beasts, the four beasts; seven angels, the seven angels. This approach illustrates the transition from introduction to specification.
Let's consider the four angels as connected to the ultimate conclusion of God's probation. It becomes clear that the four beasts and the four angels are, in fact, the same beings. One of these four angels hands the vials of the seven plagues to the seven angels.
Revelation 15:7 states, "And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever."
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