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Re: The King of the North
[Re: Rick H]
#195666
04/14/23 02:29 AM
04/14/23 02:29 AM
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For myself, I believe the unidentified pronoun "he" in verses 16 to 39, always points back to the last identification -- namely the title, "king of the North", way back in verse 15. The title King of the North moves on to the next strong northern power (not necessarily the exact geographic site) that wars against God's saints, even though the author, Daniel, doesn't repeat that title again till verse 40.
The title, king of the south, likewise moves on to the next strong southern power that wars against God's saints. But we see in the early verses of Daniel 11 when the KON conquers some of the KOS's territory, he is not called the KOS. And when the KOS conquers some of the KON's territory, he is not called the KON, simply because the two kingdoms are still very much in existence, though they may have lost territory to the other.
In this way of thinking, the pronouns point back to last identified title.
So I read verse 40 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south (the southern Muslim power which includes Egypt) push at him (the "him" refers back to the papal power that was being described in the previous verses):
But the papacy has achieved politically and military. (Just like Revelation 17 shows a combination of powers to form the last papal led charge. The king of the north (is still the "he" or papacy yet he has changed into a formidable power with massive political and military backing thanks to countries like America) thus he can come against him (the king of the south) like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; The papal Christian coalition is attacked by Muslims from the south and he the Papal Christian coalition will fight back and shall enter into the countries, (subdue them) and shall overflow and pass over.
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Re: The King of the North
[Re: Rick H]
#195700
04/20/23 09:00 AM
04/20/23 09:00 AM
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Keep going.
Don't stop here.
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Re: The King of the North
[Re: Rick H]
#195718
04/24/23 03:22 PM
04/24/23 03:22 PM
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The king of the North is always that Babylonian Power revealed in Daniel.
Babylon is the head, Media Persia supplied the arms (and bear feet) to carry it on, Greece was the body that developed all the philosophies and traditions and combined them into both the Jewish religion and Christianity. Rome was the power that enforced them upon the world. The papacy carried it all forward in the name of Christ even though Rome was divided, the papacy was the clay power that held the Roman pieces together.
The Greek Seleucids (king of the north) were called kings of Babylonia. They ruled all of Babylonia in the east as well as Syria and parts of Turkey.
The apostles seemed to have called Rome, by the code name of Babylon! (See 1 Peter 5:13)
And revelation calls the last religious/political power Babylon.
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Re: The King of the North
[Re: Rick H]
#197102
12/02/23 08:34 AM
12/02/23 08:34 AM
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OP
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Here is another good study on this I came across... "What is true of God's relation with man in history also holds for His relation with man in prophecy. In the prophecies of Daniel God projects an active divine participation in human affairs from the time of His encounter with the prophet, through all the seeming disorder created by human attempts to gain power and force the subservience of others, until Michael at last stands up and brings such efforts to an unsuccessful conclusion. God's act of initially willing such a result did not "destroy human freedom; rather it set the context in which man's freedom would appear and mature, and what its ultimate 2 destiny would be." Thus, prophecy is an expression, not of coercion, but of the divine will to be involved with and close to mankind. It is the natural counterpart of God's involvement in human history, from which He is never absent. Therefore, if God is constantly with His people in history one would expect the fact to be reflected in prophecy, and in the nature of prophecy's fulfillment generally. To say merely that prophecy exists and is capable of accurate fulfillment is not enough. Different parts of Daniel's prophecy, in some facet of their bearing on the plan of salvation, have been in process of fulfillment? in their primary significance? in every era of history since Daniel. The broader context of God's ongoing involvement with mankind in history and in prophecy suggests that it would be incongruous to apply Dan 11:2-35 to one very limited span of past time in myopically close detail, and then to apply the remaining verses to another very limited span of future time.1 It might be felt that the history of the mid-second century B.C. is so accurately described in Dan II that no other serious historical explanation is available? that history demands the former island of fulfillment and belief demands the latter. This is not the case, and it is a point to be made with emphasis. An alternative does exist, and it is one that corresponds to the breadth and level of significance one might expect from an inspired perspective on history. Details of minor importance are not allowed to 2 take on major importance in the prophet's thinking. A corollary is that items of major importance are given major emphasis. And here is a matter that demands the most careful attention. A condensed summary of history, inspired by the God who actively works in history to save mankind, would be expected to contain at least some reference to the Saviour, through whom that work is effected. Indeed, it could be expected that such an analysis of history would revolve directly around the Savior's activity and be saturated with implications concerning Him. This is in fact the case. In Dan 11:22, at the very center of a narrative spanning all of Dan 10-12, is a reference to Christ on the cross as the "prince of the covenant"? swept away, along with an overwhelming army of others, through a process of judicial murder, on falsified charges of disloyalty to Caesar.1 This reference to Christ in 11:22 is pivotal to the entire narrative which surrounds it, and to our discussion of that narrative. It takes more than human insight to recognize the significance of Christ's life, or His place in human history. When Peter stated, "'you are the Christ, the Son of the living God[,] Jesus replied, 'Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by 2 man, but by my Father in heaven.'" In the same way, Daniel's references to Christ match Him too closely to have been merely the product of human speculation.3 More than any scholarly argument the accuracy of these references confirms the inspiration of his prophecies.... Definition of Terms "North and "South" The most conspicuous and frequently recurring of the technical terms used in Dan 11 are "king of the North" and "king of the South." In each section where the terms occur North and South are rival factions within a larger single entity. Thus in w . 5-15 North is Seleucid Syria and South is Ptolemaic Egypt, but both were Greek. In w . 23-28 North is represented by Octavian based in Rome and South by Mark Antony based in Egypt, but both men were Romans. In w . 29-45 the problem is more complex, but the same principle continues to apply. The exilic context Elsewhere in Scripture North and South do not represent rival factions of any identifiable larger entity. Such a relationship is unique to Dan 11. North in the exilic prophets is used to refer to oppressive powers in general ? especially Babylon, but also Assyria. Occasionally the northern oppressor comes against Babylon rather than a from within it. Egypt, on the other hand, is consistently depicted as a country that holds out the false prospect of security as an alternative to seeking help from God.3 In all of this North and South are poised for conflict, and so the theme of superpowers engaged in an ongoing rivalry that must inevitably involve God's people is consistent with Daniel's usage. A second significance associated with Egypt is based on Exodus 5:2. Here Egypt in the person of Pharaoh refuses to recognize Yahweh's existence or authority: "Pharaoh said, 'Who is the Lord, that I should obey him and let Israel go? T do not know the Lord and I will not let Israel go.'" Pharaoh's open, intelligent denial of and opposition to the true God may be taken as an appropriate symbol for such opposition generally. Atheism would be one extreme form of such an attitude. Notice that if a long span of time is involved m the prophecy of Dan. 11, which is a fundamental claim of the historicist interpretation,6 it will be necessary for the terms "North" and "South" to apply during more than one era of history. Since no single world empire was dominant during the entire course of the prophecy, under this model, the terms must be taken to have different historical referents during different periods.^- And one must expect changes that go beyond the matter of one nation following another in time. As the prophecy of Dan 11 passes 2 3 into the Christian centuries God's people are no longer localized. Thus, while North and South remain agents of opposition, they begin to take less of their significance from the compass and more from the roles established for them in the exilic prophets and elsewhere in 4 Scripture, as cited above. The usage of the exilic prophets? which describe events that Daniel himself lived through? remains a consideration of the greatest importance in determining the extra-geographical significance of North and South in Dan 11." Then he goes into his study on Daniel 11, with Ptolemaic Egypt facing Seleucid Syria in verses 5-15, Octavian (later Caesar Augustus) and Mark Antony in verses 23-28, and then symbolic of the direction from which oppressive powers come, Spiritual "Babylon/Egypt" in verses 29-45, which he considers merge against Gods people.... https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1008&context=theses
Last edited by Rick H; 12/02/23 09:08 AM.
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Re: The King of the North
[Re: APL]
#198362
01/04/25 08:32 AM
01/04/25 08:32 AM
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OP
Group: Admin Team
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By criticizing Uriah openly before the brethren, James White would have done damage. That is what Ellen White was telling him. EGW supported Smith and his book and never rebuked him. WHY? EGW did not have a problem rebuking error. Her rebuke of her husband was more that just causing a damage view of the brethren what is was, there was more to the story. You should read the back story sometime. Yes, when it would cause the enemies of the church to find division and conflict to use against it, here is a a good description of what happened. 'The above in Christ Triumphant 330.3,4 is echoed in The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, vol. 4, Page 1067: ?The year following White repeats his position at the General Conference of 1878 and, following his impressive succession of "if's," comes to certain emphatic conclusions. Differing from Smith's later views on the latter part of Daniel 11, he found a distinct parallel between this chapter and Daniel 2, 7, and 8. White's position in 1877 and his line of reasoning are as follows: "Let us take a brief view of the line of prophecy four times spanned in the book of Daniel. It will be admitted that the same ground is passed over in chapters two, seven, eight, and eleven, with this exception that Babylon is left out of chapters eight and eleven. We first pass down the great image of chapter two, where Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome are represented by the gold, the silver, the brass, and the iron. All agree that these feet are not Turkish but Roman. And as we pass down, the lion, the bear, the leopard, and the beast with ten horns, representing the same as the great image, again all will agree that it is not Turkey that is cast into the burning flame, but the Roman beast. So of chapter eight, all agree that the little horn that stood up against the Prince of princes is not Turkey but Rome. In all these three lines thus far Rome is the last form of government mentioned. "Now comes the point in the argument upon which very much depends. Does the eleventh chapter of the prophecy of Daniel cover the ground measured by chapters two, seven, and eight? If so, then the last power mentioned in that chapter is Rome." And again, in a General Conference session sermon almost a year later, he said: "There is a line of historic prophecy in chapter eleven, where the symbols are thrown off, beginning with the kings of Persia, and reaching down past Grecia and Rome, to the time when that power 'shall come to his end, and none shall help him.' If the feet and ten toes of the metallic image are Roman, if the beast with ten horns that was given to the burning flames of the great day be the Roman beast, if the little horn which stood up against the Prince of princes be Rome, and if the same field and distance are covered by these four prophetic chains, then the last power of the eleventh chapter, which is to 'come to his end and none shall help him,' is Rome. But if this be Turkey, as some teach, then the toes of the image of the second chapter are Turkish, the beast with ten horns of the seventh chapter represents Turkey, and it was Turkey that stood up against the Prince of princes of the eighth chapter of Daniel. True, Turkey is bad enough off; but its waning power and its end is the subject of the prophecy of John and not of Daniel." (From sermon on Sabbath preceding General Conference session.) -The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, vol. 4, Page 1067. 1-5 Notice that after James White made this biblical statement regarding the KON that you will not find any statement made by Ellen White correcting or even rebuking him on this prophetic and historic fact once published for all to read at their leisure. This not only confirms the KON is preached and taught to be Rome by James and Ellen White, it also confirms Ellen White never rebuked James White for declaring this truth as a rebuke against Uriah Smith that day as some twist out of context to this day. Her rebuke to her husband was clearly and solely based on the method by which James rebuked Uriah.
Last edited by Rick H; 01/04/25 08:33 AM.
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Re: The King of the North
[Re: dedication]
#198363
01/04/25 08:36 AM
01/04/25 08:36 AM
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OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,277
Florida, USA
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The king of the North is always that Babylonian Power revealed in Daniel.
Babylon is the head, Media Persia supplied the arms (and bear feet) to carry it on, Greece was the body that developed all the philosophies and traditions and combined them into both the Jewish religion and Christianity. Rome was the power that enforced them upon the world. The papacy carried it all forward in the name of Christ even though Rome was divided, the papacy was the clay power that held the Roman pieces together.
The Greek Seleucids (king of the north) were called kings of Babylonia. They ruled all of Babylonia in the east as well as Syria and parts of Turkey.
The apostles seemed to have called Rome, by the code name of Babylon! (See 1 Peter 5:13)
And revelation calls the last religious/political power Babylon. Well take a look at the following I came up with from my notes, not sure where its from... Daniel 12:1 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And we find even more in this from Ellen White on what comes before 'Micheal stands up', at Daniel 11 where the last verse says the King of the North 'comes to his end, and none to help him'. This connects up with the end of the fourth Beast power in Daniel 7, verse 26 'But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.' In "A Word to the Little Flock," one of the earliest S.D.A. publications, Ellen White says: "I saw all that 'would not receive the mark of the Beast, and of his Image, in their foreheads or in their hands, could not buy or sell. I saw that the number (666) of the Image Beast was made up'." -- p. 19. "Michael is to stand up at the time that the last power in chap. 11, comes to his end, and none to help him. This power...is brought to view in Rev. 13:11-18. His number is 666." -- pp. 8, 9. The above explains that the two-horned beast is the one to whom the number 666 belongs; and that this beast, of "Revelation 13:11-18," and the "King of the North" of Daniel 11:45, are the same power. Therefore, the nation represented by this particular beast, and the "King of the North," or the "man" who is to be the head king -- of that nation in the time when this "image beast" (the two-horned) enforces the worship of "his image," whose image is nothing less than the thing he made, are to make a likeness of the religio-political system of the "beast before him" (the leopard-like of Revelation 13:1-10); that is, a likeness of the papal system in the period before the leopard-like beast received his deadly wound. The Identifying Acts of the King of the North. (1) He defeats the king of the south, and takes his kingdom (Dan. 11:15, 16), after which he stands in the "glorious land" (Dan. 11:16) -- Palestine. (2) In the glory of the kingdom, a raiser of taxes stands up (Dan. 11:20). (3) His kingdom is "overflown" with arms of a flood from before him (Dan. 11:22), and he loses Egypt and Palestine. (4) Afterwards he works deceitfully, and becomes strong with a small people (Dan. 11:23). (5) He flatters wicked ones for their wickedness (Dan. 11:32). (6) He divides the land for gain (Dan. 11:39). (7) He becomes strong the second time, yet is defeated by the king of the south (Dan. 11:25, 29, 30). (8) Both kings speak lies at one table (Dan. 11:27). (9) Having become strong the second time, and having engaged in an unsuccessful war with the king of the south, he sets his heart against the holy covenant (Dan. 11:28). (10) He pollutes the sanctuary of strength, and takes away the daily (Dan. 11:31). (11) He forsakes the god of his fathers (Dan. 11:37), acknowledges a strange god (Dan. 11:39), and disregards the desire of women (Dan. 11:37). (12) In the time of the end, he again defeats the king of the south, enters into the countries, overflows and passes over (Dan. 11:40); then once more stands in the glorious land. Following this, Edom and Moab and the chief children of Ammon, escape out of his hand (Dan. 11:41); and the Libyans, also the Ethiopians, follow at his steps (Dan. 11:43). (13) Tidings out of the east and out of the north trouble him. Therefore, he goes forth with great fury, destroys, and utterly makes away many (Dan. 11:44). (14) He also plants the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain, yet comes to his end, and no one helps him. Beginning with the ancient Medo-Persian Empire (Dan. 11:2, 3), the chain of events of this prophecy reaches on to the time that the "king of the north" plants "the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain" (Dan. 11:45), and culminates, as the angel explained, with the events of Daniel 12: "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Dan. 12:1. The world is stirred with the spirit of war. The prophecy of the eleventh chapter of Daniel has nearly reached its complete fulfillment. Soon the scenes of trouble spoken of in the prophecies will take place. {9T 14.2}
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Re: The King of the North
[Re: Rick H]
#198364
01/06/25 07:04 PM
01/06/25 07:04 PM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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In "A Word to the Little Flock," one of the earliest S.D.A. publications, Ellen White says: "I saw all that 'would not receive the mark of the Beast, and of his Image, in their foreheads or in their hands, could not buy or sell. I saw that the number (666) of the Image Beast was made up'." -- p. 19. "Michael is to stand up at the time that the last power in chap. 11, comes to his end, and none to help him. This power...is brought to view in Rev. 13:11-18. His number is 666." -- pp. 8, 9. A Word to the Little Flock, was a very early publication. According to the introduction , it is primarily a James White publication devoted to the setting forth of his views of unfulfilled prophecy. This was nearly a year before the first of the five Sabbath conferences convened, at which time those whom we today revere as our spiritual forefathers met together and with open minds and hearts searched the word of God to better understand its truths..... the three communications written by Mrs. E. G. White, depicting the experiences yet before the people of God. Two of these, being presentations of important visions, have been largely reprinted again and again in the E. G. White books. That some words, phrases, and sentences which appeared in these early accounts were left out by Mrs. White in later printings has been a source of concern to some. For a brief account of the first printing of these visions and a discussion of the omissions, together with Mrs. White?s explanation, the reader is directed to the appendix.
.. So what do we find in the appendix The number 666, does it not apply to the first (papal) beast? Remember Adventist doctrines were not fully understood yet just a year or two after 1844. So what was the early understanding? In 1836 William Miller proposed that the first beast of Rev. 13 be interpreted as pagan Rome, and the second beast as papal Rome. He applied the number 666 to the first beast, defining it as a period of six hundred sixty six years of pagan rule over over God's people (158 BC -508). The Sabbath keeping Adventist however, applied the ?number of the beast? to the second two-horned beast instead of to the first. But do we know when they adopted established who the second beast actually was? In 1847 James White makes this identification and declares of this second beast: ?This last power that treads down the saints is brought to view in Rev. 13:11?18 . His number is 666? ( A Word to the ?Little Flock? [1847], pp. 8, 9). A similar statement by Ellen White, also included in that publication by James White, was in a letter written by Ellen White to Joseph Bates, in which she seems to reflect that belief. Bates also published the letter in a Broadside, it was actually he that inserted the number (666) in parentheses . Ellen had not written that number. In other words, in a period when they were still studying out how the world would continue after 1844, that statement is not clear, and we need caution in how we apply it. THE APPENDIX On page 19 of A Word to the "Little Flock" appears a short paragraph dealing with the "mark of the beast." This paragraph also was omitted by Mrs. White, but we find an entire chapter devoted to this subject in Early Writings, pages 64-67. {1847 JW, WLF 26.3} The scripture references which appear in the E. G. White communications in A Word to the "Little Flock" were inserted by James White. With these are six references to Second Esdras of the Apocrypha. James White assumed the full responsibility for the insertion of all these references, as has been noted by his statement appearing at the bottom of page 13, and they constitute no part of Mrs. White's account. {1847 JW, WLF 26.4} It will also be observed that in the center of page 19, in connection with the statement regarding the beast and the image beast, the number "666" is found inserted in marks of parenthesis as are the letters referring to the scripture references. The fact that this number appears in parenthesis indicates clearly that it was not a part of the vision, but was inserted by Joseph Bates, the first publisher, as were the scripture references by James White, and reflects the view held by him at that time. {1847 JW, WLF 26.5} A final observation is this. Was Ellen White even talking about the number 666, Remember it was inserted by others, as were all the text references. She's talking about the Sabbath. They believed the Sabbath was the mark of the Beast. Look at the context without the additions: I saw that the holy Sabbath is, and will be, the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers; and that the Sabbath is the great question, to unite the hearts of God's dear waiting saints. And if one believed, and kept the Sabbath, and received the blessing attending it, and then gave it up, and broke the holy commandment, they would shut the gates of the Holy City against themselves, as sure as there was a God that rules in heaven above. I saw that God had children, who do not see and keep the Sabbath. They had not rejected the light on it. And at the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully. This enraged the church, and nominal Adventists, as they could not refute the Sabbath truth. And at this time, God's chosen, all saw clearly that we had the truth, and they came out and endured the persecution with us. And I saw the sword, famine, pestilence, and great confusion in the land. The wicked thought that we had brought the judgments down on them. They rose up and took counsel to rid the earth of us, thinking that then the evil would be stayed. {WLF 18.4} I saw all that "would not receive the mark of the Beast, and of his Image, in their foreheads or in their hands," could not buy or sell. I saw that the number of the Image Beast was made up; and that it was the Beast that changed the Sabbath, and the Image Beast had followed on after, and kept the Pope's, and not God's Sabbath. And all we were required to do, was to give up God's Sabbath, and keep the Pope's, and then we should have the mark of the Beast, and of his image. {WLF 19.1}
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Re: The King of the North
[Re: Rick H]
#198371
01/09/25 12:57 PM
01/09/25 12:57 PM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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And all we were required to do, was to give up God's Sabbath, and keep the Pope's (sabbath), and then we should have the mark of the Beast, and of his image. {WLF 19.1} Maybe we should look at the "king of the North" as a counterfeit hierarchy imitating the true Trinitarian God. The dragon = satan, pretending to be god of this world. (He was active all through earth's history) The first beast = papacy, pretending to be the voice and manifestation of Christ in the world. The second beast = pretending to be the Holy Spirit, the power gathering the nations into the papal (and dragon's) fold of worship. We know the papacy really doesn't have an army of it's own, it never did. It always depended on it's religious control of strong kings who would implement it's demands. It was when these "kings" deserted him that he received the deadly wound. It's when America sets up within it's government, laws that implement Papal demands, that the papal wound is fully healed.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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