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Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
#198414
01/27/25 05:55 PM
01/27/25 05:55 PM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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First -- yes, Revelation is a very important letter to God's people. We need to study it, and the lessons learned from that study is ever increasing (as it does for all who mine deeply into the Word of God), new treasures are found continually.
Yet, there is considerable concern as we see the whole interpretive structure carefully studied out by our forefathers, which laid the very foundation of our faith in prophecy, being thrown out. While we can acknowledge that the Adventist pioneers relied heavily on history books rather than the Biblical purpose of the trumpets, and that Ellen White made no explanation at all concerning the first five trumpets, thus leaving the meaning of those trumpets rather open to further study, yet we need to remember they had built a sturdy structure for interpreting Revelation, including the seven trumpets. And we need to take that structure serious.
That structure upon which our understanding of Daniel and Revelation is built is called "historicism".
What is historicism?
Historicism is an approach to explaining existing beliefs by studying the process or history by which they came about. Interpreting prophesy by the historicist model is seeing how the beliefs which God gave the prophets, were treated, modified, and acted upon, or not acted upon, changed, rediscovered, and fought for or against and how they now exist in our present world. By this we can see how far, or close they are to Biblical truth, and why people believe what they do?
Historicism looks at the whole of Bible prophecy as a sweeping overview of church history, from the time of the prophet to whom the revelations were given, to the end times. This approach involves defining if something is a symbol, figure, or type in the Bible, and seeking it's meaning within the Bible itself. Historicism was especially the method used during the Reformation, when it was clear to the reformers that Christianity had apostatized and the Roman papacy had a very large part in that apostacy, with the papacy becoming Antichrist.
Why is historicism so unpopular now?
The counter Reformation was to a large degree established to counter Protestantism and bring the papal controlled Christianity back into power. So the Jesuits studied hard to find new interpretations for prophecy that left the papacy out of prophetic fire.
Preterists -- Revelation was mainly for the Jews and their upcoming problems and the destruction of their nation by imperial Rome. Futurists -- Revelation is not about the Christian church and it's development and history, it is about the end times. The tribulation. The restoration of the Jews, the coming of Christ to rule the nations.
Most of these reconsidering movements concerning Revelation within Adventism are basically adopting the futurist approach with a little Adventist flavor. Except for the seven churches (which basically address Christian believers) everything else is pushed into the end times (the future). This removes the whole development of the schemes of satan throughout Christian history. It leaves the trumpets open to speculation, and many place them after probation closes, when it's too late for them to do anything other than announce terrible things will happen to those who didn't accept Christ.
It seems wise to study Revelations trumpets (and seals) with the historicist perspective.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198415
01/28/25 01:43 AM
01/28/25 01:43 AM
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OP
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Revelation is the "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" When the books of Daniel and Revelation are better understood, believers will have an entirely different religious experience. They will be given such glimpses of the open gates of heaven that heart and mind will be impressed with the character that all must develop in order to realize the blessedness which is to be the reward of the pure in heart. The Lord will bless all who will seek humbly and meekly to understand that which is revealed in the Revelation. This book contains so much that is large with immortality and full of glory {18MR 24.2} {TM 114.3} Every segment in Revelation reveals things about Jesus. It gives us glimpses into heaven where we see Jesus. In Revelation 1-3 we see Jesus and His love and care for His people in the church throughout the Christian ages. In Revelation 4-5 we glimpse into heaven, a door is standing open, (4:1) and we look into the sanctuary, we are in the "holy place" and see the candle stick with seven blazing lamps, (4:5) before the throne of God. We see bowls of incense (5:8) in vision the apostle John was granted a view of the temple of God in heaven, he beheld there "seven lamps of fire burning before the throne." Revelation 4:5. He saw an angel "having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne." Revelation 8:3. Here the prophet was permitted to behold the first apartment of the sanctuary in heaven; . . . {FLB 202.3} But in Revelation 4 there is a problem, there is no one worthy to officiate and carry out the agreements of the covenant contained in the scroll. There is no Priest to officiate in the heavenly sanctuary. John weeps bitterly as he knows without some one worthy to open that scroll and officiate in the temple, all mankind was lost. There would be no redemption! But a Lion of the tribe of Judah (a king from the human line) appears, yet not as a Lion, He is the Lamb appearing "as if it had been slain". Christ appears before the Father to present His blood. Rev 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament
Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; The sanctuary was open! Jesus is inaugurated as the Divine High Priest and given all power to administer all the promises and provisions of the covenant. The first work of the Great High Priest was to send forth the Holy Spirit. "He had seven eyes which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth" Rev. 5:5 Christ's ascension to heaven was the signal that His followers were to receive the promised blessing. For this they were to wait before they entered upon their work. When Christ passed within the heavenly gates, He was enthroned amidst the adoration of the angels. As soon as this ceremony was completed, the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples in rich currents, and Christ was indeed glorified, even with the glory which He had with the Father from all eternity. The Pentecostal outpouring was Heaven's communication that the Redeemer's inauguration was accomplished. According to His promise He had sent the Holy Spirit from heaven to His followers as a token that He had, as priest and king, received all authority in heaven and on earth, and was the Anointed One over His people. {AA 38}
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198416
01/28/25 02:29 AM
01/28/25 02:29 AM
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OP
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The next two chapters, Rev. 6 and 7, describe the seals, but we will leave the seals for another thread and move on to the trumpets, beginning in chapter 8. Like the seven churches and the seven seals, the seven trumpets first give us a glimpse into heaven to show us what is taking place there the whole time those trumpets are giving their message. The heavenly scene begins while Christ is still in the first apartment of the heavenly sanctuary: He (John) saw an Angel "having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne." Revelation 8:3. Here the prophet was permitted to behold the first apartment of the sanctuary in heaven; . . . {FLB 202.3} Rev. 8:2-5 is a full sequence of Christ's heavenly ministry in both the holy place and the most holy. From beginning to end, depicting His ministry in the first apartment of the sanctuary as He intercedes for His people in the holy place, then we see the transition into the Most Holy Place as He places the hot coals from the altar of incense into the censor and with incense enters the Most Holy Place. The scene takes us to the end, when Christ's work in the sanctuary is finished, and the censor is cast down. Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. They were given the trumpets, at the beginning of Christ?s ministry in the heavenly sanctuary. It's like John writing that seven angels were given seven trumpets, but before we get into their trumpet messages, we need to see Jesus and what He is doing while those trumpets sound their warnings. Remember what Jesus is doing while those trumpets give some rather startlingly messages! 8:3 And another Angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
8:4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. Christ's ministry in the heavenly temple's holy place is one of intercession. We don't see an angry God, but rather a pleading God. Saying, I died for you, accept me, pray to me, my blood will cover your sins and I will make you holy through my merits and power. 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, This is the transition, when Jesus moves from the Holy Place into the Most Holy. On the day of atonement the high priest took a golden censor, filled it with fire from the altar of incense, and entered the Most Holy Place. Lev. 16:12-15 And he (the high priest) shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the veil: .. that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not: ?and sprinkle the blood with his finger, seven times upon the mercy seat?.to make atonement? And when His work of atonement was complete he come out with the censor and put it down. So Christ when He has finished His ministry in the Most Holy Place will cast down the censor into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198417
01/28/25 01:21 PM
01/28/25 01:21 PM
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OP
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Christ's Ministry while the trumpets are calling people to repentance.
CHRIST'S SANCTUARY MINISTRY | SEVEN TRUMPETS |
Rev.8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood
before God; and to them were given seven
trumpets. | Rev. 8:6 And the seven angels that had the seven
trumpets prepared themselves to sound |
CHRIST'S WORK IN THE HOLY PLACE
Rev. 8 :3-4 And another angel came and stood at
the altar, having a golden censer; and there was
given unto him much incense, that he should
offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the
golden altar which was before the throne.
And the smoke of the incense, which came with
the prayers of the saints, ascended up before
God out of the angel's hand. | Six Trumpets Sound
Rev. 8:7 ? 9:21
The first angel sounded..
The second angel sounded..
The third angel sounded..
The Fourth angel sounded..
Angel flying in midst of heaven, saying loudly,
woe, woe, woe, to the inhabitants of the earth.
The fifth angel sounded..
The sixth angel sounded...
But the people repented not.
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Revelation 10 and 11 | Rev. 11 Atheism rises from the pit. The Bible is
"killed" but is resurrected to great prominence.
God's last day Church also rises
Rev. 10 In the days of the voice of the seventh
angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery
of God should be finished.
Take the book, eat it, sweet in mouth, but bitter
in stomach. You must prophecy again. |
CHRIST'S WORK IN THE MOST HOLY
Rev. 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled
it with fire of the altar, This the earthly priest would do before entering the Most Holy on the Day of Atonement
Lev. 16:12-15 And he shall take a censer full of
burning coals of fire from off the altar before the
LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten
small, and bring it within the veil: .. that the
cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat
that is upon the testimony, that he die not: ..and
sprinkle the blood with his finger, seven times
upon the mercy seat..to make atonement.. |
SEVENTH TRUMPET
Rev. 11:15,19 And the seventh angel sounded;..
And the temple of God was opened in heaven
and there was seen in his temple the ark of his
testament
INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT
Rev.11:18 The time of the dead, that they should
be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward
unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name, small and great; |
END OF SANCTUARY WORK Priest comes out of the sanctuary and intercession ceases
Rev. 8:5 And He cast the censor into the earth:
and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. |
END OF THE TRUMPET SOUNDINGS
Rev. 11:19 and there were lightnings, and voices,
and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. |
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198418
01/28/25 04:50 PM
01/28/25 04:50 PM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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Some will say, "But the trumpets come after Christ throws down the censor," not realizing John often describes one side to its conclusion and then goes back to fill in what brought things to that point. There is a pattern which helps us understand. For example, Revelation 14. John begins by describing a victorious view of the 144,000 with Christ on Mount Zion, and follows that with the three angel's messages, but we do not conclude by this that the three angel's messages are proclaimed AFTER the 144,000 are singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. We realize the 3 angels? message prepares the 144,000 to stand with the Lamb. In the same way, the trumpets sound before the close of probation to call out and prepare people to stand vindicated in the pre-Advent judgment as well as to stand for Christ when probation closes. Let's look at the first four trumpets, their message which sounded loudly in the past and continue to warn, and call to the generations following. The messages are cumulative, not just historical interest points, though the historical issues are all part of the process or history as it developed. "Every form of evil is to spring into intense activity. Evil angels unite their powers with evil men, and as they have been in constant conflict and attained an experience in the best modes of deception and battle, and have been strengthening for centuries, they will not yield the last great final contest without a desperate struggle." {Mar 257.4} What are the "modes of deception" that evil angels have developed as the best modes of deception over the centuries? These deceptions developed in historic sequence in the past. It's important to know the warnings from the past, in order to recognize these deceptions that are to spring into intense activity in the end. We can be sure they have developed their deceiving power over all those centuries!
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198419
01/28/25 07:04 PM
01/28/25 07:04 PM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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FIRST TRUMPET Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and lightning mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
| BIBLICAL CLUES The gospel message was first given to the Jews! Luke 24:47 ?and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.?
Romans 2:9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
Isaiah 28 warns Israel that they would be held to the plummet (judged) and hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, as God would do his work, his strange work; because they rejected, the "foundation stone" a sure foundation:
Matthew 23:13,38 -- Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven, you won?t go in yourselves, and you won?t allow anyone else to go in either?. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under [her] wings, and you would not! 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. . ?the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow." {GC 36.2} Trees and Grass symbolize living things, often people are compared to different trees, or to grass.
| HISTORICIST interpretation: Remember Jerusalem 70 AD.
They were the first to be given the gospel message! They were called to repentance. Christ Himself dwelt among them. After His death and resurrection, the message was proclaimed to them for another three and a half years, 31-34 AD. The call was given: (Acts 3:19) ?Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord? While a remnant believed, most did not. The messengers were persecuted and some killed, the believers scattered. Probation closed for the Jews, as a nation. They had rejected their Savior. They had rejected the One to Whom all their ceremonies pointed. They rejected the Messiah and clung to all the ceremonies, and traditions as if they were the real thing. They descended into internal strife and darkness, ending in terrible destruction in 70 AD. Their city and sanctuary was burnt and totally destroyed, all within the city died. (But none who believed and obeyed the warning were in the city) This first trumpet is alerting the world that a time comes when mercy ceases. It is a warning for ?the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow." {GC 36.2} Back then it was only a part of the world. A time is coming when it will be total.
It's a warning to the Christian world in many ways, as we see in Romans 11:19-21 "You will say, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not high-minded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not you.
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SECOND TRUMPET And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood. Revelation 8:8; | BIBLICAL CLUES A mountain signifies a great nation or kingdom with authority and power. It can mean God?s kingdom, or earthly kingdoms. Is. 37:13 (God says) he that puts his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain;
Joel 3:17 I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain:
Jeremiah 51:24-25 I will render unto Babylon? I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD? and will make thee a burnt mountain.
The sea:
The sea, a body of water, symbolizes "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues" (Revelation 17:15). In Daniel 7, the great earthly kingdom (beasts) all rise up out of the sea.
They were presented to the prophet Daniel as beasts of prey, rising when the "four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea." [Daniel 7:2.] Winds are a symbol of strife. The four winds of heaven striving upon the great sea, represent the terrible scenes of conquest and revolution by which kingdoms have attained (or lost) to power. We can also note the negative warnings of God against His people uniting with state powers.
| HISTORICIST interpretation: Remember what happened around 476 AD. The Mighty Roman Empire Fell.
It fell AFTER the gospel message was presented to them. As the jewish nation rejected the gospel the messengers travelled all over the known world, preaching the gospel to the Gentiles! At first imperial Rome persecuted those who believed, but then came a big change, the emperor Constantine seemingly embraced Christianity, and it became the state religion; The sword of civil power was now available to the church, but the message of repentance and grace did not reach the hearts. They took the Christian name, but did not change in character. Rome fell, not just because of the Barbarians, but because corruption filled their lives. A mountain symbolizes a great nation. (See Jeremiah 51:25) Its destruction, depicted as a great burning mountain plunging into a turbulent and chaotic sea of humanity, it arose from a turbulent sea and plunges back into it with great turbulence.. The fall changed the whole shape of civilization and economic trade in the western world. Remember that seemingly unconquerable, ruthless, persecuting and oppressing, warring, western Roman empire, was cast into the sea of humanity, amid a lot of confusion and bloodshed. Don't look to human built mountains for answers for life. Come to God's holy mountain of salvation and life. Don't put your trust in the might of flesh. Oppressive human powers will fall! As Rome fell in the 5th century, in like manner Roman's collective mountains, which will seem so powerful in the end, will also fall.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198421
01/28/25 10:02 PM
01/28/25 10:02 PM
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OP
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THIRD TRUMPET Revelation 8:10-11 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
| BIBLICAL CLUES
STARS Revelation 1:20 :20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels (leaders) of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which you saw are the seven churches. Revelation 2 and 3 The stars (angels) are religious leaders (pastors) of the seven churches.
2:1 Unto the angel (star) of the church of Ephesus write..
2:8 And unto the angel (star) of the church in Smyrna write..
2:12 And to the angel (star) of the church in Pergamos write..
In Rev. 12, we see the woman with a crown of twelve stars, denoting the 12 tribes, or the 12 apostles. Again these are religious leaders. BURNING AS IT WERE A LAMP Two verses have lamps on the lampstands (1:20 and 4:5) they seem to signify the churches receiving messages from the Holy Spirit. But the phrase "as it were" implies this is not the real thing, it's a counterfeit. WORMWOOD, signifies bitter, poison, the term appears eight times in the Old Testament, each time associated with bitterness, poison and death, paired with "the water of gall" Jer. 9:15. | HISTORICIST VIEW Out of the ashes of Rome's fall rose the papal power. Already groomed by the imperial Roman power, he took the seat of Rome. We are reminded that the message of God's grace and salvation was to be carried by the stars or angels (church leaders) (See Revelation 1:20) to the world as they received their strength from Christ and the Holy Spirit. But now another spirit was directing the church leader who had seated himself, over the church. Most modern interpretations of the trumpets try to sidestep the fact that this was a serious event that would shape and mislead the world for years to come. This religious leader, sitting as the head of the church, has fallen spiritually, he no longer has heaven?s pure gospel and is turning the fresh water ? the water of life from God's throne, into bitter poisonous wormwood. This star, like a lamp, while it points primarily to the papacy who is the human agent, also refers to Satan. The letters sent to the seven "stars" or "angels" of the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 are messages from the God of heaven for the church leaders to share with their congregations. But in the third trumpet there is a warning that a serious change has taken place as the top church leader (papacy) received his power from the fallen star, the dragon (see Rev.13:2). Signifying that another spirit had entered right into leadership of Christian Church.
The last day issues over worship are not something that satan invents at or near the close of earth?s history! No, he already gained control and poisoned the gospel truth along with God?s commandments through a system that claimed to represent God more than a thousand years ago, and that same system still claims to represent God, it holds the same darkened doctrines it developed back then, and people wonder after him as if he had the solutions to life?s problems, even now, in our day.
As the human star, or top church leader was rising to prominence, it was actually falling into apostasy, receiving its marching orders from the original fallen one that appears as a lamp of light.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198422
Yesterday at 12:36 PM
Yesterday at 12:36 PM
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OP
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FOURTH TRUMPET THE DARK AGES
Fourth Trumpet Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
Bible parallels, clues or meanings:
Darkness Psalms 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: Ps. 107:111 Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, bound in affliction and iron; Because they rebelled against the words of God, regarding with contempt the counsel of the most High. Matthew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness! John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Sun Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; 1 Cor. 1:30 Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: Moon ? reflected light. Can refer to people reflecting God?s character in their lives. Standing on Bible as their foundation, having followed the light of the OT to Jesus, the glorious light.
Revelation 12 shows "a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet". God's church, in contrast with the Babylonian woman of Rev. 17. The pure church clothed in the light of Christ's righteousness, contrasted with the Babylonian church in darkness arrayed in earthly splendor that has no light. Historicist Interpretation of the fourth trumpet
The Dark Ages. From about 538 and lasting several centuries. The light of truth is eclipsed. This is the result of what happens when a human pretends to be God, sitting in the temple of God, using the sword to divert spiritual worship to themselves.
The dark ages is a term used more by Protestants than Catholics. A term now being contested, because the system that created the dark ages, now, once again, seeks to be thought of as the ?light of the world?. But we need to remember that it was a time of darkness for the common people. A false Christian power eclipsed the sun of righteousness, withheld the Bible from the people, and ?priests? taught falsehoods, the wine of Babylon. Placed themselves, mere sinful humans, above the God of heaven, claiming power to change God's law (deleting the second commandment and changing the fourth), claiming power to forgive sins, sending people to a sinful human to confess their sins and obtain forgiveness, claiming the keys to heaven and using them to control kings and princes, using the sword and force to keep the people in darkness. Making merchandize of God's grace.
It was indeed like an eclipse, where a whole region of earth only got a few glimpses of the glorious truths of the gospel still shining behind the darkness that obscured it.
Remember, Rome has not changed. It is no more "light" now, than it was in the darkness of the Dark Ages.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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