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Re: What Is The Origin Of Christmas?
#20380
12/21/05 04:53 AM
12/21/05 04:53 AM
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SDA Active Member 2024
Senior Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 634
New York
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Julinessen, Norsk flags on the tree, tapes and CDs of Christmas carols in Norwegian. As Children Grandma would take us to NY City to find a church with services in Scandanavian that was having julitree fest. We get some Norwegian foods, and Christmas Eve is when we open the gifts.
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Re: What Is The Origin Of Christmas?
#20381
12/21/05 05:40 PM
12/21/05 05:40 PM
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Regular Member
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 56
Canada
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IMO, the origins of Christmas are less important than the current meaning in the mind of the common person. When the average person thinks of Christmas, most do not think of its "pagan" origins but rather of the connection with 1) the birth of Jesus Christ or 2)Santa Clause (or some combination of the two.) "Pagan origin" plays no part in their thinking. Therefore Christmas has become a Christian celebration and should be celebrated as such.
There is much precedent for the taking of "pagan" concepts, celebrations, etc. and re-interpreting them in a Christian concept. Speaking of the Passover, Bernard W. Anderson in his book Understanding the Old Testament, 4th ed., page 71, has this to say:
Indeed, it is quite likely that the original nucleus of the account was an ancient Israelite story told to interpret the celebration of the Passover. Even before Moses shepherds observed this nomadic festival in the springtime at the first full moon just before setting out for summer pastures. During the nocturnal celebration it was customary for families to sacrifice a young animal and eat the meat in their tents, along with unleavened bread and desert herbs. The original purpose, still echoed faintly in the Old Epic tradition (Exod. 12:21-39), was to secure the welfare and fertility of the flocks when the baby lambs and goats were being born, and to drive away evil spirits, thought to be especially active at that time. Accordingly, the blood of the sacrificed animal was smeared on the entrance to the tents to ward off the Destroyer (specifically mentioned in 12:23) who attacked people and animals. This primitive meaning, however, was superseded by a new understanding of the rite. As the story was retold in the light of the Exodus, the custom of shepherds leaving for summer pastures was reinterpreted to refer to Hebrews departing for new land. Yah-weh became the "Destroyer" who spared the blood-marked Hebrew dwellings when "passing over" them, so that no scourge would destroy them. ...Moreover, when the Israelites settled in Canaan, the nomadic Passover rite came to be connected with the Feast of Unleavened Bread, an agricultural festival celebrated at the barley harvest.
Here we see that God himself took an existing tradition and re-interpreted it for His people. The old meaning became lost, and the new meaning completely replaced it.
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Re: What Is The Origin Of Christmas?
#20382
12/21/05 06:52 PM
12/21/05 06:52 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 275
Bahamas
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Pope Benedict XVI resembled a clean-shaven Father Christmas when he donned a red velvet hat with white ermine trim to face a winter chill for his weekly general audience. As temperatures hovered around nine degrees celsius (48 degrees fahrenheit) thousands of pilgrims who gathered in the square were treated to the rare sight as the 78-year-old pope arrived for the audience in his popemobile, waving to the crowd. His secretary removed the hat when the pope sat in his throne for the beginning of the ceremony, for which his headwear was the usual round zucchetto cap. No pope since John XXIII, who died in 1963, has worn the traditional Camauro in public, though its use by popes goes back to the 12th century. --Ren
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Re: What Is The Origin Of Christmas?
#20383
12/21/05 09:33 PM
12/21/05 09:33 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 56
Canada
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You'll have to fill me in on the significance of this, Razorren.
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Re: What Is The Origin Of Christmas?
#20384
12/22/05 12:59 AM
12/22/05 12:59 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 275
Bahamas
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Just posted a bit of news. --Ren
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Re: What Is The Origin Of Christmas?
#20385
12/22/05 02:42 AM
12/22/05 02:42 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote: Originally posted by Rob: IMO, the origins of Christmas are less important than the current meaning in the mind of the common person....[snipped to save time and space: see original]
There is much precedent for the taking of "pagan" concepts, celebrations, etc. and re-interpreting them in a Christian concept. Speaking of the Passover, Bernard W. Anderson in his book Understanding the Old Testament, 4th ed., page 71, has this to say:
Indeed, it is quite likely that the original nucleus of the account was an ancient Israelite story told to interpret the celebration of the Passover....
Here we see that God himself took an existing tradition and re-interpreted it for His people. The old meaning became lost, and the new meaning completely replaced it.
Sounds interesting if not likely, but where is the record of nomadic shepherds of Palestine and the (ancient) Near East doing these spring rites? God would have had to re-educate the descendants of Jacob about himself: after 4 generations in Egypt!
Even the temple services were similar to those of the surrounding nations: facing east, daily sacrifices, but the day of atonement was different, I suspect! There was also the marked absence of women serving in the temple, as priestesses or prostitutes; and the theological difference of God himself propitiating his wrath against sin: all other religions have attempted to appease their gods - who had no wrath to appease, which, according to J.I. Packer in Knowing God, was the theological meaning of expiation compared to propitiation. That is, expiation involves appeasing a deity which has no wrath against sin, but propitiation involves both the Deity's wrath against sin, and the Deity himself deals with it, which is "God in Christ" of course.
The issue with Christmas being taken from a pagan festival's date is that, unlike Passover, there is no Christian event dating to the 25th of December with which to replace the pagan basis of the day. While the date is best associated with celebrating Christ's birth, even in the eyes of the world, the informal celebration of salvation incorporated in a Christian interpretation of the Biblical feasts is an untapped blessing to help forget and ignore the commercialisation of Christmas and Easter. There is no rigorious requirement of such a schedule for practical godliness, but it remains a source of joy to remember, at regular intervals of the year of God's own timing, his redemption of us in Christ, with the day of atonement reminding us of Jesus' need to finish his ministry of atonement, and the feast of Tabernacles straight afterwards pointing to the New Jerusalem, not so?
Having read Bacchiocchi's books of the festivals, I'm willing to tap these reminders of salvation which God has supplied. Four communion services a year are not enough commemoration of Christ's death and celebration of salvation to cover our need for reminders are they? I'll continue this thought with a new thread.
On this thread, yes, pagan rites have had their meanings superceded repeated with God's truth, but Christmas only has a one hand hold of God's truth for its purposes in the face of commerce and secular neutrality.
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Re: What Is The Origin Of Christmas?
#20386
12/22/05 10:20 AM
12/22/05 10:20 AM
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SDA Active Member 2024
Senior Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 634
New York
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I'm sorry that this post will have to dissagree with you Colin, but the Biblical feasts of the land have all been found in ancient writings of Canaan that pre-date Abraham. Yes they had the day of Atonement and the two goats and many of the other events that Israel was to later keep--Israel took the local holidays dealing with the agriculture of Canaan, romoved things such as orgies and made them into ways to think about God, and the orgies to help the gods were replaced with the idea to simply trust God. And don't forget Isaiah's wife was a temple priestess, now they were not supose to be temple prostitutes but sadly durring the dark times they were, but like Isaiah's wife, they were there.
Second, neither you nor Rob appear to have read the posts that I've made. Yes, histories have for centuries said that Christmas has been kept since the 4th Century when there was much compromise with paganism, but we now know that this history is outdated as it has been discovered that December 25 as the birth of Christ was kept since the third century AD and that it was based on the feast of the announcation held every year on March 25 (April 6 in the Eastern Church), a Christian feast from the second century AD that is based on a Jewish tradition from inter-testamental times. So it is based on a Christian tradition from a time where the Church was avoiding paganism.
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Re: What Is The Origin Of Christmas?
#20387
12/22/05 03:09 PM
12/22/05 03:09 PM
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Regular Member
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 56
Canada
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On the contrary, Kevin, I did read your extensive post; I just don't think it's really relevant. (By the way, please cite your sources.) Who cares what the origins of a particular festival are? In the 21st century nobody associates Christmas with a pagan feast, deity, celebration, ect. It has been completely re-interpreted with a Christian meaning and history, so why ruin it for those whose faith is weak? If it does happen to actually have a Christian origin, so much the better.
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Re: What Is The Origin Of Christmas?
#20388
12/23/05 04:49 AM
12/23/05 04:49 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Rob,
Not quite true, there are lots of christians who care very much about even the smallest hints of a pagan origin for christmas. For the rest of the people (at least what it seems in scandinavia) it has largely passed the christian interpretation and moved on to the santa/giftsbuying giftsgiving interpretation. In this group mostly only newspaper editorial authors care about any pagan origins.
The sources for Kevins posts, good idea, a schoolarly approach should always be backed with the appropriate source list.
/Thomas
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Re: What Is The Origin Of Christmas?
#20389
12/22/05 05:28 PM
12/22/05 05:28 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
Senior Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 634
New York
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Hi, sorry about that, I've been posting the source but not in the recent references to the post, so of course I'll post it again: It's Bible Review the winter (or November-December) issue of either 2001 or 2002. It is an excellent article.
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