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Re: It has been done! #20443
01/02/06 03:14 AM
01/02/06 03:14 AM
Darius  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
MM, if you believe that we are born lost this must mean that infants who die must go to hell. There is no other conclusion. Face the truth.

Re: It has been done! #20444
01/02/06 12:16 AM
01/02/06 12:16 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Being born in need of rebirth and the way God handles infants in judgment are two different matters. When people die before they reach the age of accountability, or before they learn certain Bible truths (i.e., the sabbath), the way God deals with their cases in judgment varies depending on factors that make sense to God.

Anyone who refuses to accept Jesus as their personal Saviour, or who refuses to crucify a known sin, is not in a saved state. We cannot say with certainty that this person or that person who dies before they understand the truth, or dies before they are able to accept Jesus, is lost or saved. Only God knows their eternal reward.

Re: It has been done! #20445
01/02/06 11:33 AM
01/02/06 11:33 AM
Darius  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
MM, again you make conclusory statements without any rational support.

Re: It has been done! #20446
01/03/06 03:24 AM
01/03/06 03:24 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Darius, Jesus said He will judge everyone justly and truthfully.

John
5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

John
8:14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, [yet] my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

Romans
14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

2 Corinthians
5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Re: It has been done! #20447
01/03/06 02:03 PM
01/03/06 02:03 PM
Darius  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
MM, your quotes have no relevance to how infants are treated.

Re: It has been done! #20448
01/04/06 03:15 AM
01/04/06 03:15 AM
Alpendave  Offline
Banned Member
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 178
Deer Park, WA
1 Peter 4:
[17] For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
[18] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Matthew 24:
[13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 16:
[16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:
[21] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 9:
[27] Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: (I think the word "remnant" and "all" are opposites).

and

[25] As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
[26] And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. (Creation does not make one one of God's people.)

If Jesus is going to save everyone from their sins, then there is no way for "wickedness to abound" and the "love of many [to] wax cold."

Re: It has been done! #20449
01/03/06 04:00 PM
01/03/06 04:00 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Darius, infants are people, they're human same as you and me. And Jesus will execute righteous judgment, which means, He will do the right thing in the cases of all human beings - including infants. The quotes I posted above apply to infants, therefore, they are relevant so far as infants are concerned. Jesus will save all who are counted worthy of salvation and eternal life.

2 Thessalonians
1:5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Re: It has been done! #20450
01/03/06 07:15 PM
01/03/06 07:15 PM
Darius  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
If we are born lost then all infants are born lost and must go to hell as long as they are considered to be infants. This would mean that EGW was wrong to suggest that infants will be in the kingdom. We can't have it both ways. It is more likely that we are born safe until we choose to opt out of the kingdom of God.

Re: It has been done! #20451
01/03/06 10:35 PM
01/03/06 10:35 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Darius, Jesus made it clear that we must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. Obviously, in the case of infants who die, who did not and could not choose to be born again, Jesus has knowledge not available to us that He relies on to determine which infants will go to heaven.

Re: It has been done! #20452
01/03/06 11:09 PM
01/03/06 11:09 PM
Darius  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
MM, if you believe that Jesus will make decisions about infants based on information that others do not have and cannot verify, why do you also believe that the reason He did not destroy the devil and his angels was because He had to provide just that kind of information to the unfallen worlds. You can't have your cake and eat it.

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