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Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
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Re: It has been done!
#20533
03/01/06 11:52 PM
03/01/06 11:52 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
God didn't allow Satan to immdiately suffer the inevitable result of sin because had He done so, what happened to Satan would have been misunderstood, and the differences between Satan and God's forms of government would not have been seen.
This explanation leads to more problems than it may possibly solve. First, Lucifer was publicly punished. Every celestial being understood that he had been banished. It is strange reasoning that the only negative act that would cause other beings to be concerned would be his death. God did not have to answer to anyone, anyway. I don't get this idea that somehow there is doubt in the minds of the angels about God. This explanation reduces God's stature. We should be embarassed to repeat it.
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Re: It has been done!
#20534
03/01/06 11:56 PM
03/01/06 11:56 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Jeff, something is wrong with the philosophy that one who is accused does not deserved to be treated fairly. Why would you suggest that I am defending Satan because I spoke the truth about what happened. I am also concerned about the dualistic thinking that assumes that to say that Lucifer did nothing wrong automatically blames God. However, the fact that Lucifer was not immediately destroyed is evidence that God did not blame him. I don't expect you to see this because you probably are as influenced with the vengeance thinking that is throughout Christianity. We just don't understand grace and love. Vengeance is what moves us. Sadly.
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Re: It has been done!
#20535
03/02/06 12:03 AM
03/02/06 12:03 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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This new turn gives a literal definition to the phrase "devils advocate". Interesting.
Still, we know that all humans have sinned, and we know that sin leads to death, and we know that faith in Jesus Christ is the only thing that restores good relations with God Father. All of this can be found in the NT letters.
What is the practical application of the contents of this thread to our everyday lives?
/Thomas
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Re: It has been done!
#20536
03/02/06 12:10 AM
03/02/06 12:10 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
1 John 3: 7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
quote:
James 2: 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
quote:
Revelation 20 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Appears the idea of the devil facing some hard time in the just judgement of God isnt just taken out of thin air.
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Re: It has been done!
#20537
03/02/06 01:06 AM
03/02/06 01:06 AM
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First, it is not my part today to ensure that Satan gets a fair shake. I see dimly now, who am I to judge? But when face to face with God, I will see clearly to judge whether or not Satan got a fair shake. I am asking if you are defending Satan, I am not assuming so. Your statements made it *seem* that 1) you are indeed defending Satan, and 2) that Satan’s innocence implies that God is to blame. Before I assume anything about what you believe, I am asking directly. So, again I ask 1) are you defending Satan, and 2) who is to blame for Eve eating the fruit. You can look at my previous post for the list of possibilities, except that I forgot to add none of the above. But if you choose the latter, please explain your reasoning. Also, that God did not immediately destroy Lucifer does not prove that God holds him blameless. In fact, in the scripture record God does indeed blame the serpent, and by association, Satan.
Quote: from Gen 3:14-15 NASB | The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life; (15) And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel." |
Also, as Thomas cites, Satan has his comeuppance.
Jeff
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Re: It has been done!
#20538
03/02/06 02:18 AM
03/02/06 02:18 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
First, Lucifer was publicly punished. Every celestial being understood that he had been banished. It is strange reasoning that the only negative act that would cause other beings to be concerned would be his death. God did not have to answer to anyone, anyway. I don't get this idea that somehow there is doubt in the minds of the angels about God. This explanation reduces God's stature. We should be embarassed to repeat it.
All of your comments here strike me as making God arbitrary. Both Jude and the Spirit of Prophecy state that Satan left his position at God's side. God didn't force him to leave. He left because he no longer wanted to be God's covering cherub.
It is strange reasoning to conclude that because I states that the angels would have misattributed Satan's death to God (instead of being the inevitable result of sin) to mean that this is the only negative act the angels would be concerned about. That was neither stated nor implies, and wasn't even a point being made.
It's not God has to answer to anyone, but God chooses to. He's like. He's humble (witness Him washing the feet of His betrayer). God wishes that we would worship him because we admire Him and the attributes of His character. We can only do this if we perceive His goodness, and we will only perceive His goodness if He reveals it, which requires time and opportunity. This in no way lessens God's stature, but raises it.
It was the cross which answered the questions:
quote:
To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory.
Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion. (DA 758)
Far from being ashamed to repeat this, this is one of the most wonderful things God has seen fit to reveal to man. The Great Controversy is a wonderful paradigm. No other places God in such a positive light.
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Re: It has been done!
#20539
03/02/06 02:25 AM
03/02/06 02:25 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
However, the fact that Lucifer was not immediately destroyed is evidence that God did not blame him.
Only if you assume God destroys everyone worthy of blame. If that were the case, there wouldn't be anyone left, would there? As the psalmist says, "If Thou shouldst mark iniquity, who could stand?"
quote:
I don't expect you to see this because you probably are as influenced with the vengeance thinking that is throughout Christianity.
This is an interesting comment, since your previous quote seems to be motivated by the very thinking you are complaining about here.
quote:
We just don't understand grace and love. Vengeance is what moves us. Sadly.
I agree with this. Also that vengeance thinking is prevalent throughout Christianity.
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Re: It has been done!
#20540
03/02/06 02:27 AM
03/02/06 02:27 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Still, we know that all humans have sinned, and we know that sin leads to death, and we know that faith in Jesus Christ is the only thing that restores good relations with God Father. All of this can be found in the NT letters.
This is all true, but to clarify, the good relations which faith restores are because faith reconciles us to God. God is already reconciled to us.
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Re: It has been done!
#20541
03/02/06 02:57 AM
03/02/06 02:57 AM
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With what is being stated here by Darius, contrary to the Bible and the writings of EGW, I am surprised this topic is as active as it is.
I could close this topic, or everybody could stop posting in this topic and let this topic die its own death without me closing it.
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Re: It has been done!
#20542
03/02/06 12:51 PM
03/02/06 12:51 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Daryl, the truth is that what I have posted is fully supported by the biblical evidence. Absolutely.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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