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Re: It has been done!
#20593
03/13/06 01:16 PM
03/13/06 01:16 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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A number of definitive statements are being made yet the writers are not providing the passages in the text that would support those conclusions. Further, we seem to ignore the fact that the human race has not died, nor has the band of fallen angels.
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Re: It has been done!
#20594
03/13/06 07:24 PM
03/13/06 07:24 PM
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The scripture record says that Eve died. The scripture records the serpent telling Eve that she would not die. The scripture record describes the serpent’s actions as deceptive. The serpent lied. That is definitive. You know where to find the verses.
There is no reason to believe that the serpent only meant that the human race would not die. Even if this is what he meant, he did not present it that way to Eve. The message he conveyed was that *she* would not die. If he did not intend to deceive Eve, he would have presented it truthfully, and, the Bible would not have labeled Satan as a liar. So, that the human race and the fallen angels including Satan has not died really has no baring on any of the definitive statements made in this thread regarding the lies.
We’ve been going in circles too long for such a simple point. The serpent deceived Eve. Can we agree and move on with the topic?
Jeff
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Re: It has been done!
#20595
03/13/06 08:39 PM
03/13/06 08:39 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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The point has already been made. The human race constitutes "His people" and He came to save his people. He did not fail. He did not come to make salvation possible. He came to save them. He is better than Rambo.
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Re: It has been done!
#20596
03/14/06 01:27 AM
03/14/06 01:27 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,642
California, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
The point has already been made. The human race constitutes "His people"...
The point was postulated, not proven.
If anyone wants to know for sure who "His people" are, just read until the end of the promise: They are those who have been saved from their sins. And truly, He did not fail.
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Re: It has been done!
#20597
03/14/06 12:24 PM
03/14/06 12:24 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Asygo, it is as simple as Grammar 101. If "He shall save His people" then it is obvious that those who need to be saved are His people. Saying that those who are saved are His people is simply restating the promise.
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Re: It has been done!
#20598
03/14/06 01:46 PM
03/14/06 01:46 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Darius, I can agree with what you are saying in a certain sense. For example, when Lincoln signed the emancipation proclamation, slaves were liberated, in one sense. In another sense they weren't, until they heard the good news, and believed it.
Similarly, Christ emancipated the human race. Had Christ not come, the human race would have self-destructed. The human race was lost, without hope. So in a certain sense, one can say that Christ saved the race, and indeed, inspiration (both Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy) states this very thing.
Is it in this sense that you are speaking? Or do you have in mind Universal Salvation, where everybody will spend eternity in heaven/new earth in God's presence?
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Re: It has been done!
#20599
03/14/06 02:01 PM
03/14/06 02:01 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Why are we so uptight about who will be in heaven? That concern has not been sub-contracted to us so it is a bit humorous the amount of effort we apply to it. Deep inside it seems we wish to have the ability to decide who will and will not be there. Why not leave that to the Creator?
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Re: It has been done!
#20600
03/14/06 07:21 PM
03/14/06 07:21 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,642
California, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
Asygo, it is as simple as Grammar 101. If "He shall save His people" then it is obvious that those who need to be saved are His people.
Well, in Grammar 201, they taught us propositional logic.
By your logic, if I say, "I will pick up my son from school," I mean that everyone that needs to be picked up from school is my son. Wrong, obviously.
But it does mean that everyone who is NOT picked up from school is NOT my son.
Proper exegesis of Matthew 1:21 leads to the conclusion that those NOT saved from their sins are NOT His people. The claim that "His people" is universal is easily disproven by the fact that salvation from sin is not universal.
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Re: It has been done!
#20601
03/14/06 07:42 PM
03/14/06 07:42 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by asygo:
Well, in Grammar 201, they taught us propositional logic.
By your logic, if I say, "I will pick up my son from school," I mean that everyone that needs to be picked up from school is my son. Wrong, obviously.
But it does mean that everyone who is NOT picked up from school is NOT my son.
Proper exegesis of Matthew 1:21 leads to the conclusion that those NOT saved from their sins are NOT His people. The claim that "His people" is universal is easily disproven by the fact that salvation from sin is not universal.
You must have missed class that day. You are not the only one who has a son and he was your son before you picked him up. What you call proper exegesis is an attempt to twist the text to fit your doctrine.
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Re: It has been done!
#20602
03/14/06 08:37 PM
03/14/06 08:37 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,642
California, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
You are not the only one who has a son and he was your son before you picked him up. What you call proper exegesis is an attempt to twist the text to fit your doctrine.
True, I am not the only one who has a son. And God is not the only one who has people.
Again true, my son was mine before I picked him up. And God's people are His before He saves them from their sins.
But there is another truth that seems to escape your grasp: Since I promised to pick up my son, any son who I don't pick up is not mine. Since God promised to save His people from their sins, anyone who is not saved from his sins is not God's.
All I'm saying is that God promised to "save His people from their sins." That's what the angel said, and I accept that as authority. That's my doctrine, as you call it.
Now, if you have a kind of exegesis (or grammar or whatever you want to call it) that requires cutting off part of the angel's words in order to fit your doctrine, you're free to do that. Since that's a very popular hermeneutic, you're in no danger of being peculiar.
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