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The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood?
#24496
03/09/02 01:02 AM
03/09/02 01:02 AM
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OP
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Many of our pioneers believed that while Christ was the Son of God, he was not equal with the Father. I cannot document it, but my impression is that it was mainly through the Christ centred message of Sister White that the church generally came to agreement on the full and complete Divinity of Christ. But for several decades since Sister White passed away, the church has not only taught the complete Divinity of Christ, it seems to have adopted the Catholic doctrine of the Trinity in which the clearly defined roles of each member of the Godhead are blurred into that mystic, unintelligible, equation - 1=3=1.
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Re: The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood?
#24497
03/09/02 03:25 PM
03/09/02 03:25 PM
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Matthew 28:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:Mark this is all I have time to post right now I am getting ready to leave for church soon. I know there are more verses but this is the one that popped into my head. To me this verse mentions 3 separate people.
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Re: The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood?
#24498
03/09/02 10:21 PM
03/09/02 10:21 PM
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That's my concern with the Trinity doctrine Avalee - that it confounds the fact that the deity is comprised of three separate, distinct persons, who have distinct roles. The bolded part of the passage below is the strongest text in favour of the Catholic teaching on the trinity. Some scholars believe that this text is not part of the original, and that it has been added, but let's assume for now that it is part of the inspired record. Is it saying that 1=3=1? Notice that almost the same phrase, "these three are one," that is used in the bolded verse appears a second time in the verse that immediately follows this verse. But if we apply the same interpretation to the italicized verse it makes no sence. quote:
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. I John 5:5-10
This is fairly important I think because in the war that is raging all about us as the great controversy unfolds, we need to have progressively clearer conceptions of the office and work of Christ as our high priest. The trinity doctrine as taught by other churches blurs that role, because if the three are one, then all three are priests, or conversely, if the Father or Holy Spirit are not priests, yet the three are one, then none are priests. Either way the results are to muddy the waters on the plans of the deity for our salvation. [ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]
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Re: The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood?
#24499
03/13/02 06:01 AM
03/13/02 06:01 AM
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Mark:
I don't understand how the concept of "oneness" blurs the lines of each persons distinct role? could you clarify your concerns?
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Re: The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood?
#24500
03/14/02 04:14 AM
03/14/02 04:14 AM
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Whether the trinity doctrine detracts from the Scripture's teaching on the roles of the members of the deity depends on our concept of oneness. It seems to me that the Catholic concept on oneness goes beyond unity of purpose. It appears to have a mystic, metaphysical component. I base that statement on the fact that we get out of the Catholic concept the idea that 3=1 - an impossibility.
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Re: The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood?
#24501
03/14/02 12:15 AM
03/14/02 12:15 AM
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The way i read "Thunder of Justice" it seems that the catholic wersion of the trinity is the Father the Son the Holy Ghost plus Mary, the mother of jesus. 3+1=4
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Re: The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood?
#24502
03/14/02 12:54 AM
03/14/02 12:54 AM
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Notice the phrase "as we are", Scripture does not use that phrase to denote anthrophomorphic oneness (physically joined into one body). The phrase speaks of unity of experience, of purpose and mission, of spiritual experience and mindset, the common nature of spiritual perameters that unites. It contrasts the disunion of people by the conflicts of human nature, with the unity and communion between the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Three seperate Divine Persons, all three called Lord. The translated root word for Lord pertaining to them, is Jehovah. When you look at the translation as a family name - Their Surname as Jehovah and Their given name as Father, and Son (Jesus Christ) and Adoni (Holy Ghost - Holy Spirit). John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. 2 Corinthians 10:11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present. Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
****************** Samuel Jacobson an elderly SDA Jewish member , also skilled scholar - has studied out the text " Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: " Samuel said briefly that the phrase "The LORD our God is one LORD:" literally translated is "The Three seperate Who are united as though They were One Person" This is speaking about Their unity & communion with Each Other even though They are three seperate Persons.
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Re: The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood?
#24503
03/14/02 01:00 PM
03/14/02 01:00 PM
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OP
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Thank you so much Ed. The unity aspect of this doctrine is so important - we are to model ours after the divine unity. And in the divine society, there is no merging of individuality. But what sweet, enduring fellowship the Father, Son and Spirit demonstrate to us. Your reference to our Jewish brother's scholarship is also a big help.
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Re: The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood?
#24504
03/14/02 11:20 PM
03/14/02 11:20 PM
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Mark: if you agree with Ed's post, then what more is there to say? Let us not forget that "one God in three Persons" is a mystery. It is not something we can understand before we believe it. We believe the word of God because God says it. He gives the understanding after. "Consider what I say and the Lord will give thee understanding in all things." The triune God is a mystery that eternity will not even suffice to unravel! There will always be new discoveries about it but never will we ever be able to fathom it completely!
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Re: The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood?
#24505
03/15/02 11:49 PM
03/15/02 11:49 PM
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Who can fathom God? But we have in John 17 a glimps of the tender ties between the Father and the Son. I've reproduced it below because the greatest mystery of the Deity is not so much in how it is constituted as in the depth of fellowship that exists between its individual members. This is the same fellowship that God calls us to - between us and Him, and between each other. Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us that we should be called sons and daughters of God. quote:
17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are]. 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 17:21 ]That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Again, I repeat, the greatest mystery of the Deity is not so much in how it is constituted as in the depth of fellowship that exists between its individual members. This is the same fellowship that God calls us to - between us and Him, and between each other. [ March 15, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]
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