Some of you may be familiar with some of the heavy duty rock and roll bands...I wish I wasn't; but it is a part of my past...

There is an example I'd like to point out about so called "Christian Rock."

The group called "Black Sabbath" used to be SDA's. They have a HeavyMetal Satan worship repertoir that is nothing short of shocking. Just before singing their song "Selling My Soul," the singer yells out: "Don't forget! The real sabbath is coming around to you!!!"

What bothers me, is that I am hearing similar tunes, with Christian lyrics, and I ask all those who say; "Why should the devil have all the good music?" Do you really believe that? Is the bumper sticker true that I saw the other week: "Jesus Rocks!"

Those who say "Rock & Roll will never die," are not right! It will, and it has! I had a brother who was fast heading down the lane to rock and roll stardom. He was doing the opening show for the big names, like Bon Jovi etc. I started to pray for him, and wouldn't you know it...A couple of years later, all he wants to do is play classical music!

I was at a so called christian concert a while ago with a new christian. Suddenly, a band came on stage that was just like Black Sabbath - except they sang christian lyrics...I was really concerned that the person I was with would be very adversely affected so I started to pray...I just said: "O Lord! Please don't let this sway her...."

And wouldn't you know it. The lead singer, right in the middle of a real metal song, went blank! She yelled out in horror: "Oh no! I forgot the words!"

Could these examples be indications of what we need to do more of if we encounter "christian rock in the church?"

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"The joy of the Lord will be your strength." (Neh.8:10).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

Music has the power to uplift or to destroy.

I am amazed by the number of people that say ' It's ok to listen to this because it has Christian lyrics'.

I would like to ask a question, again, that no one, as yet, has answered.

When you put one rotten apple in a bushel of good ones, leave it there over a period of time, what happens?

Usuing the same logic, if you put into your mind the mind numbing rock beat over a period of time, what happens?

No matter how you dress it up, a pig is still a pig; is it not?

The same goes for 'christian rock', a pig in a different dress.

This statement I use as my signature came on a little sign I put in the back window of my vehicle:
WHAT IS POPULAR IS NOT ALWAYS RIGHT,
WHAT IS RIGHT IS NOT ALWAYS POPULAR!

Because something is popular doesn't mean that it is right, Christianity isn't a democracy where the majority rules, remember, He is coming back for the REMNANT, not the whole bolt.

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What is popular is not always right.
What is right is not always popular.
Gerry B.

[This message has been edited by Gerry Buck (edited August 22, 2000).]

"Those things which have been in the past, will be in the future. Satan will make music a snare BY THE WAY IN WHICH IT IS CONDUCTED.

God calls upon His people, who have the light before them, in the Word and in the testimonies, to read, and consider, and to take heed.

Clear and definite instruction has been given IN ORDER THAT ALL MAY UNDERSTAND.

But the itching desire to originate something new, results in strange doctrines, and largely destroys the influence of those who would be a power for good." (2SM 37-38).

This counsel alerts concerned Christians to the dangers that can occurr in the thoughtless, or unwise use of even "religious music."

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"We are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets; Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Cornerstone!" (Eph.2:20).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

I guess if she forgot the words they didn't mean much to her.
I have always been perplexed by music. It is such a nebulous entity. I mean what is it really?
I have always said it is the words that count and qualified it by saying the words should be the focus and not to complement the music as is often the case in "Rock" music.
I do know that God is not praised by the listless and lifeless funeral like way in which many hymns are sung week after week. SOP talks about how we should have new songs introduced regularly to give life and new meaning to our services. And yet it seems as though a song has to be around for at least a century before it can qualify as spiritual or acceptable.
Strange.

SOP also tells us that it should not be 'of the world'.
She said that we do not honor God when we sing 'religious' songs with a melody from 'show tunes'.

Scripture also tells us that we are not to mix the things of God with the things of the devil.

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What is popular is not always right.
What is right is not always popular.
Gerry B.

That's all well and good in theory, but who defines what is of this world and what isn't? What does that even mean? To the avg person it just sounds like a bunch of pious drivel. I mean we have hymns in our hymnal that share the tune with songs that don't have Christian lyrics. Does that mean they are worldly and should be abandoned? Scripture is full of a variety of instruments that are used to praise God so the instrumentation can't be the problem. Does anybody have any clear (as opposed to vague generalities) counsel on this topic, as to what music is uplifting and what music isn't?

Do you want chapter and verse?
I can't give you that.
I can only share my 50 plus years of living, the things I've seen and taken part in.
I grew up in the rock and roll early years.
I attended several concerts, and saw what passed as entertainment, and how the groups and fans 'behaved'.

I was over 30 before being found of God, and had a lot of baggage that needed to be shorn away.
I have attended some 'christian rock' concerts, and you know what? I saw absolutely NO difference from what I had seen in a secular one.
And I do mean no difference.
When I had a sattelite, we were able to get in a christian station, they played 'christian rock' videos.

I thought MTV was stupid, these people put them all to shame with all the girations and wild jerky moves.
Dancing in the aisles to music that had no place in a christians library.
They even have a top ten, just like the Billboard Review.

I watch as our church leaders say there is nothing wrong with this type of nonsense, them listen as they lament the fact that so many of our young people don't seem to reverence things as we do.
I also watched as my oldest moved away from the church, lured first by christian rock, them turned on to secular music.
I had an argument with an individual about this in the past, but my daughter set him straight when she told him that it was the draw of the music that did it.

We have to be very careful about what our children listen to, and we need to be careful of what we put into our heads as well.

You can't get out what you don't put in.
If you put garbage into a receptacle, that is all you can get out of it.

I agree with you in principle. There is some music that I find offensive, but if chapter and verse can't be given, what right do I have to define offensive and inoffensive? I think there is some music that is definitely bad and some that is good, but what about the majority of music that lies inbetween? There was a time when the organ was considered satanic and not to let inside a church. Now some think anything but an organ is heresy. Some hate guitars yet a harp is very similar and so is the "Holy Violin". There's A LOT of grey area here that no one seems to be able to shed any light on.

What I am posting here I had posted on another forum months ago. I have made only a few modifications. Ellen White wrote 100 years ago about the kind of music that is referred to as Christian rock, gospel, CCM, etc. You see, this type of music is not new. Adventists were using it in campmeeting in Indiana in 1900.

From Elder Haskell's letter to EGW (quoted in the EGW biography, "The Early Elmshaven Years"

quote:

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To describe it, I hardly know what to say. It is beyond all description. I have never seen any company held with a firmer grasp by a certain number of the leading ministers, than they are held in Indiana. Brother R. S. Donnell is president, and they have an experience in getting the people ready for translation. They call it the "cleansing message." Others call it the "holy flesh"; and when I say the "cleansing message" and the "holy flesh," no doubt these terms will bring to your mind experiences that illustrate what we saw....

There is a great power that goes with the movement that is on foot there. It would almost bring anybody within its scope, if they are at all conscientious, and sit and listen with the least degree of favor, because of the music that is brought to play in the ceremony. They have an organ, one bass viol, three fiddles, two flutes, three tambourines, three horns, and a big bass drum, and perhaps other instruments which I have not mentioned. They are as much trained in their musical line as any Salvation Army choir that you ever heard. In fact, their revival effort is simply a complete copy of the Salvation Army method, and when they get on a high key, you cannot hear a word from the congregation in their singing, nor hear anything, unless it be shrieks of those who are half insane. I do not think I overdraw it at all.—S. N. Haskell to EGW, Sept. 25, 1900.

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EGW replied to Elder Haskell (found in Manuscript Releases vol. 21, pages 126-133)

quote:

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It is impossible to estimate too largely the work that the Lord will accomplish through His proposed vessels in carrying out His mind and purpose. The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit never reveals itself in such methods, in such a bedlam of noise. This is an invention of Satan to cover up his ingenious methods for making of none effect the pure, sincere, elevating, ennobling, sanctifying truth for this time. Better never have the worship of God blended with music than to use musical instruments to do the work which last January was represented to me would be brought into our camp meetings. The truth for this time needs nothing of this kind in its work of converting souls. A bedlam of noise shocks the senses and perverts that which if conducted aright might be a blessing. The powers of satanic agencies blend with the din and noise, to have a carnival, and this is termed the Holy Spirit's working.

When the camp meeting is ended, the good which ought to have been done and which might have been done by the presentation of sacred truth, is not accomplished. Those participating in the supposed revival receive impressions which lead them adrift. They cannot tell what they formerly knew regarding Bible principles.

No encouragement should be given to this kind of worship. The same kind of influence came in after the passing of the time in 1844. The same kind of representations were made. Men became excited, and were worked by the power thought to be the power of God. They turned their bodies over and over, like a carriage wheel, claiming that they could not do this except by supernatural power. There was a belief that the dead were raised and had ascended to heaven....

I will not go into all the painful history; it is too much. But last January the Lord showed me that erroneous theories and methods would be brought into our camp meetings, and that the history of the past would be repeated. I felt greatly distressed. I was instructed to say that at these demonstrations demons in the form of men are present, working with all the ingenuity that Satan can employ to make the truth disgusting to sensible people; that the enemy was trying to arrange matters so that the camp meetings, which have been the means of bringing the truth of the third angel's message before multitudes, should lose their force and influence.

The third angel's message is to be given in straight lines. It is to be kept free from every thread of the cheap, miserable inventions of men's theories, prepared by the father of lies, and disguised as was the brilliant serpent used by Satan as a medium of deceiving our first parents. Thus Satan tries to put his stamp upon the work God would have stand forth in purity.

The Holy Spirit has nothing to do with such a confusion of noise and multitude of sounds as passed before me last January. Satan works amid the din and confusion of such music, which, properly conducted, would be a praise and glory to God. He makes its effect like the poison sting of the serpent.

Those things which have been in the past will be in the future. Satan will make music a snare by the way in which it is conducted. God calls upon His people, who have the light before them in the Word and in the Testimonies, to read and consider, and to take heed. Clear and definite instruction has been given in order that all may understand. But the itching desire to originate something new results in strange doctrines, and largely destroys the influence of those who would be a power for good if they held firm the beginning of their confidence in the truth the Lord had given them.

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Here we have a very clear description of what kind of music is not acceptable to God and its effects on the human listener.

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Even so come, Lord Jesus
Linda

One of the most significant aspects of music is its effects on the body which have documented in research by people who are not Christians. I found the following information on the internet. The book being cited is from:

quote:

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"David Tame (another unbeliever), in his 1984 book, The Secret Power of Music.

(e) " ‘To the question, 'Does music affect man's physical body?' modern research applies in the clear affirmative. There is scarcely a single function of the body which cannot be affected by musical tones [score] ... Investigation has shown that music affects digestion, internal secretions, circulation, nutrition and respiration. Even neural networks of the brain have been found to be sensitive to harmonic principles" (p. 136).

(f) " ‘Researchers have discovered that consonant and dissonant chords, different intervals, and other features of music [score] all exert a profound effect upon man's pulse and respiration-upon their rate and upon whether their rhythm is constant, or interrupted and jumpy. Blood pressure is lowered by sustained chords and raised by crisp, repeated ones. [It has also been found that the tension of the larynx is affected by melodies, that sound stimuli can have a negative effect upon the skeletal muscles, that rock rhythms cause the heart beat to lose its perfect rhythm, and that certain rhythms can even cause a rare malady known as "musicogenic epilepsy" (76 documented cases as of 1984), with which some of its victims have been tormented to the point of committing suicide or murder.] ... We can see, then, that music affects the body in two distinct ways: directly, as the effect of sound upon the cells and organs, and indirectly, by affecting the emotions, which then in turn influence numerous bodily processes' " (p. 137).
______________________________

"Even Allan Bloom (an unbeliever), in his book The Closing of the American Mind, makes some interesting observations concerning the moral effects of music on people (pp. 68-81):...

(c) " ‘Were we to scour the globe in search of the most aggressively malevolent and unmistakably evil music is existence, it is more than likely that nothing would be found anywhere to surpass voodoo in these attributes ... as the rhythmic accompaniment to satanic rituals and orgies, voodoo is the quintessence of tonal evil. ... Its multiple rhythms [score], rather than uniting into an integrated whole, are performed in a certain kind of conflict with one another. ... What is certain is that to hear this music is to become instantly encompassed by the sound of its raw, livid power. ... Musicologists and historians are in no doubt that the drum rhythms of Africa were carried to America and were transmitted and translated into the style of music which became known as jazz. Since jazz and the blues were the parents of rock and roll, this also means that there exists a direct line of descent from the voodoo ceremonies of Africa, through jazz, to rock and roll and all the other forms of rock music today' " (pp. 189-190).

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Michael Jackson, when questioned about the lewd, sexual movements that he makes when he is performing on stage (he was on the Oprah Winfrey show at the time, 1993) said that he doesn't do it consciously, it is the rhythm of the music that makes him do it.

A book I have, "Music, the Brain, and Ecstasy" by Robert Jourdain, describes polyrhythms as impossible for the brain to generate as it cannot generate two rhythms at the same time. He gives an example by telling us to try a create a polyrhythm. With one hand begin tapping out one-two, one-two. With the other hand, tap three times for every two taps of the other hand beginning both beats at the same time. He says not to be surprised if you can't do it. It is almost impossible to manage. He goes on to say that polyrhythms were used in some classical music (I wonder how many people have ever thought about problems with classical music, but I won't go there) then makes this statement, "There's a good deal of polyrhythm in jazz, but not much elsewhere in the West. It's found extensively in the traditional music of the Middle East, Asia, and above all, Africa." A more subtle form of polyrhythm is syncopation "in which beats are accentuated apart from the regular metrical pattern."

If the brain cannot generate two rhythms at once, what does it do when it hears two rhythms at once? Consider what Sister White said about the kind of music that was being played in Indiana:

"The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions....
"A bedlam of noise shocks the senses and perverts that which if conducted aright might be a blessing." (2 SM)

The human body is a finely tuned electrical machine. It must keep a certain rhythm or the body will be thrown out of balance. The heart beats with a certain rhythm. If it loses that rhythm, it begins to fibrillate, sort of like a flutter that doesn't pump any blood. If it cannot be shocked into beating normally again, the person dies. Breathing is rhythmic; even walking has a rhythm to it. I don't go to gyms to work out because of the music. If you ask management why they play rock (and play it loud), they will tell you it is because it makes people move. It stimulates them. Certain kinds of rhythms will set the body in motion, especially those found in rock, jazz, and R&B. When was the last time a hymn made someone want to get up a boogie or just tap their feet? Dairy farmers won't play rock of any kind in the barns. The cows can't give their milk. A student decided to see what effect rock music had on animals. He had to stop the experiment at 24 hours because the mice were all dead. Plants don't usually grow to rock music. If it's harmful to plants and animals, how can it be any different for humans?

I want so much just to make my children understand. I want other youth and those not so young who are caught up in any kind of rock music to understand that God doesn't work through methods that "confuse the senses of rational beings." He speaks in the still small voice. God wasn't in the whirlwind or the earthquake. He was the still small voice, and when Elijah heard it, he bowed before the Lord. God still speaks to us through our frontal lobe, through the part of the brain that reasons and decides right from wrong. He doesn't bypass the frontal lobe and go straight for the thalamus, the pleasure center of the brain. It is Satan who works through our senses, but God goes to the heart, the mind. "Come now, let us reason together, saith the Lord."

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Even so come, Lord Jesus
Linda