This is a wide open topic which resulted from the belief statements made so far, and it is OK to continue the present discussion here.

__________________________
Psalms 119:165 "Great peace
have they which love thy law:
and nothing shall offend them."

Daryl

Daryl, what are you using for your source of official Presbyterian doctrine? What are you quoting from?

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Col 3:16; Eph 4:29,32; 2 Cor 7:1

Justin, I've just re-read your last post, and I noticed something you said that I didn't entirely understand. Here is your quote:
"On the definition of sin, Romans 14:23 - "whatsoever is not of faith is sin" - which you've quoted also defines sin as something of "doubt". Isn't this within the area of human consciousness and will - hence our choice?"
Are you saying that the opposite of faith is doubt? I'm unsure if that is accurate, given that faith is a substance rather than a description. I would think that an absence of faith is just that. Your example is like saying - I think - that the opposite of food is hunger.
There is so much in these posts to discuss, and to think about, that it might be more helpful to reduce things to one aspect at a time. (I know that's not always possible!)
I look forward to hearing a response before I attempt to write more.
Zyph.

I said I wouldn't contribute until I received a response, but I've just finished reading most of Larry Kirkpatrick's posts. Larry, I have no disagreement with your basic statement about sin. But you have said it is MORE to do with what we do than anything else. Then I assume you also believe that obedience must be more to do with what we do than anything else.
If you believe faith - or the faith RELATIONSHIP with God - is essential for us to truly obey, then isn't it also true that the absence of a faith relationship with God is a causative factor in why apparrent obedience is sin (i.e. filthy rags)?
That's not Augustinian. He believed in a doctrine that condemned people for being born sinful. We know God doesn't. But not being held responsibile for being born sinful is not related to saying that we sin because we are born sinful. It's only after the new birth that we have the capacity to not sin. Or do you believe that unconverted people can obey?
Zyph.

These posts are full of various thoughts, therefore, feel free to do them as separate topics in another more appropriate forum, or continue the discussion here.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited June 01, 2001).]

Dear Zyph,

Happy Sabbath to you!

I can see from reading your post that you and I don't have much difference in the understanding of sin. Perhaps this is also true with Pastor Kirkpatrick.

What I have meant by "doubt" with regard to "whatsoever not of faith" is this:

"The faith of Jesus." It is talked of, but not understood. What constitutes the faith of Jesus, that belongs to the third angel's message? Jesus becoming our sin-bearer that He might become our sin-pardoning Saviour. He was treated as we deserve to be treated. He came to our world and took our sins that we might take His righteousness. And faith in the ability of Christ to save us amply and fully and entirely is the faith of Jesus. {3SM page 172}

I believe all acts of unfaith stem from our distrust and/or doubt in "the ability of Christ to save us AMPLY and FULLY and ENTIRELY". This doubt is within the domain of our conscious decision-making and as such is within our will, choice and doing.

To quote Dennis Priebe, "Because we are born with fallen natures in a fallen world, we are naturally predisposed to commit acts of sin. The act of sin occurs, not when the deed is done, but when the decision is made by the mind to harbor thoughts or motivations which are contrary to God's will. The decision to sin, unless repented of, leads inevitably to a state of sin, which is seperation and estrangement from God."

Thus, you are correct in that the natural (uncoverted) man cannot escape the committing of sin.

Justin

Justin,
I'm relieved we have agreed on something! I do agree with you on the choice thing, too, but only as we respond to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. I think there are texts which indicate that God is the One who initiates everything, and our part is to respond. (I apologise for my lack of scholarship with the bible. I have no concordance at present, and I'm getting a bit blind in my old age, so the computer screen is easier to read.) I know God writes the law on our hearts, and empowers us to obey at the time of our conversion, so then choice becomes ours to truly exercise. But aren't there sins we commit by mistake - inexperience - rather than wilfully?
Zyph.

Zyph:
It looks like we're together. Any true obedience can only come when faith is involved. Also, God initiates, for our broken humanity has nothing in itself that of itself will seek after God. It has a twisted, even reversed nature that still seeks what it will as an object of wroship, but resists God Himself even while being attracted to righteousness. As we have both surmised, the end result of such is spiritual disaster in any of several forms.

I'm glad we are past the "relationship" issue. What I meant there to suggest was simply that when we boil things down to concrete expressions, real, raw-naked obedience is really the best determinant of what is going on. I never meant to imply that this obedience means anything apart from faith. Without faith it is impossibel to please God, as without faith it is impossible truly to obey.
LK

I believe I can now continue on to the next few questions and answers on the 1st Commandment:

quote:

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5. Which is the first commandment?

A. The first commandment is, Thou shalt have no other gods before me. [a]

[a]. Ex. 20:3; Deut. 5:7

6. What is required in the first commandment?

A. The first commandment requireth us to know and acknowledge God to be the only true God, and our God; and to worship and glorify him accordingly [a].

[a]. I Chron. 28:9; Isa. 45:20-25; Matt. 4:10

7. What is forbidden in the first commandment?

A. The first commandment forbiddeth the denying [a], or not worshipping and glorifying the true God as God [b.], and our God [c]; and the giving of that worship and glory to any other, which is due to him alone [d].

[a]. Ps. 14:1
[b.] Rom. 1:20-21
[c]. Ps. 81:10-11
[d]. Ezek. 8:16-18; Rom. 1:25

8. What are we specially taught by these words, "before me," in the first commandment?

A. These words, before me, in the first commandment teach us, that God, who seeth all things, taketh notice of, and is much displeased with, the sin of having any other God [a].

[a]. Deut. 30:17-18; Ps. 44:20-21; Ezek. 8:12

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Any thoughts on what they stated regarding the 1st Commandment?

__________________________
Psalms 119:165 "Great peace
have they which love thy law:
and nothing shall offend them."

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited June 10, 2001).]

Since nobody has commented on the posts on the 1st Commandment, I will now move on to what they believe about the 2nd Commandment.

quote:

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9. Which is the second commandment?

A. The second commandment is, Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thy self to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (a)

(a). Ex. 20:4-6; Deut. 5:8-10

10. What is required in the second commandment?

A. The second commandment requireth the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God hath appointed in his Word (a).

(a). Deut. 12:32; Matt. 28:20

11. What is forbidden in the second commandment?

A. The second commandment forbiddeth the worshipping of God by images (a), or any other way not appointed in his Word (b).

(a). Deut. 4:15-19; Rom. 1:22-23
(b). Lev. 10:1-2; Jer. 19:4-5; Col. 2:18-23

12. What are the reasons annexed to the second commandment?

A. The reasons annexed to the second commandment are, God's sovereignty over us (a), his propriety in us (b), and the zeal he hath to his own worship (c).

(a). Ps. 95:2-3, 6-7; 96:9-10
(b). Ex. 19:5; Ps. 45:11; Isa. 54:5
(c). Ex. 34:14; ICor. 10:22

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Any more comments on what they believe about the 2nd Commandment, or on what I have been posting so far?

__________________________
Psalms 119:165 "Great peace
have they which love thy law:
and nothing shall offend them."

Daryl