I have always wondered what need there would be for the resurrection; with the "secret," but not so secret rapture.

Whenever we see some counterfeit in a given situation, it can always be traced to a fundamental lack of insight, with some portion of the Scripture text itself.

It is also very unfortunate with the secret rapture doctrine, how it's adherents "comfort one another," with those words, of how the righteous will be secretly taken up to heaven.

I am referring to the text of 1 Thes.4:13-18. Secret rapture adherents seem to have gotten this text very confused.

At the very centre of this confusion is the Word "caught up." Verse 17 reflects on the fact that both the righteous living, and the righteous dead will be "caught up," TOGETHER, to meet Jesus in the air.

"Caught up" has more than one possible meaning in the original language. "Harpazo" and "Klepto" in the original language, are both sometimes translated as "caught up." (meaning "raptured").

"Klepto" refers to secrecy, whereas "Harpazo" means "take to one's self...not secret. It is "Harpazo" that is used in 1 Thes.4:17. Only in this context, would "caught up" be understood as intended. If it was "klepto" or secret in nature, then texts like Rev.1:7 would have to be null and void.

"Every eye shall see Him..." is not a secret; and Jesus tells us to comfort one another with the Words of the Bible, in the intended context of the author of this passage.

We started with what was considered as the most important secret rapture text: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matthew 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One is taken and the other is left behind.

quote: Daryl Fawcett

It is interesting to note that those who believe in the Secret Rapture will read this one verse (ignoring the surrounding verses ... i.e. the context), and they make two assumptions. Those assumptions are:

The one left behind ...

1. ... does not notice what is taking place, except that someone suddenly vanished
2. ... is left alive

But the context of given in that chapter and other scriptures that describes the same event does not support these two assumptions.

Why do they read into that verse more than there is? This leaves them with having to believe in two Second Comings; one secret, and one visible and noisy.

But Christ did not tell us that He would come again and again to take us to be with Him. He simply said:

... I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
	John 14:3

Good points Den Borg

Part Two

To further explain “harpazo:” This word is used in the sense of

1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away

“Harpazo” is anything but “secretive” in it’s nature. It means to literally “seize upon with force,” which is in stark difference to “klepto” meaning “to steal away secretly.” “Harpazo, is referring to an open act of violence.

Although “harpazo” is usually used to denote another person’s property being robbed; it is not used exclusively so. Sometimes it is used in a general sense for forcibly seizing upon, snatching away, or taking to one’s self. Note the following texts for examples of uses of “harpazo”:

Mat.13:19: “catcheth away”

John 6:15: “take Him by force”
John 10:12 – “catcheth them”
28 – “pluck them out”
29 – “pluck them out”

Acts 23:10 – “take him by force”

Jude 23 – “pulling them out of”

Now, there are some texts where “harpazo” is used particularly for “rapture:”

Acts 8:39 – “caught away”

2 Cor.12:2 – “caught up”
4 – “caught up”

1 Thes.4:17 – “shall be caught up” (together)

Rev.12:5 – “was caught up”

“Harpazo” is used to show use of force against someone in the following text:

Mat.11:12 – “take it by force.”

It is of course important to also reference this word “klepto” and how the Bible writers used it:

Mat. 6:19 – talking about where thieves “break through and steal” (secretively), see also Mat.6:20 – where thieves do not break through or “klepto,” (steal).

Mat.19:18 – in talking about the ten commandments says: “Thou shalt not steal.” (this is not always referring to something in the open that everyone sees).

Jo.10:10 – mentions a thief breaking in to “klepto” or “steal.”

Rom.13:9 – thou shalt not “klepto” or “steal.”

Eph.4:28 – “let him that “klepto” (stole), “klepto” (steal) no more.”

I have a large book in my library here at home. It has 21 lengthy, in depth essays by the worlds most prominent secret rapture scholars. Each essay is done by a different scholar. Someone gave me this book years ago, trying to convert me to the secret rapture proposals; but I think it has only served to make me see the truth more clearly.

I have several lines of thought, from this book, and other sources, that would likely be very constructive to pursue within this topic…so let me start with this one:

I will be referring to some notes taken from one of the authors of this book, with the name of Edward E Hindson.

I am going to act as if I am a secret rapture proponent for the next few posts, to better illustrate how truth can be twisted, (I have been approached this way by secret rapture adherents), and to see how complex this topic can get.

But, the other thing that I believe this will accomplish, is to set the truth before others, in much clearer lines. So please remember, in the next few posts, I will be stating my case for the secret rapture. I have studied into this because of various relatives or friends who believe it:

“First of all, I think that it is really wrong for you to believe that the rapture is NOT a secret. Why do I say this? Because, the rapture, and the return, are two separate aspects of the same event. In other words, the rapture and the return, are two aspects of the second coming of Christ Jesus, OUR Lord.

Is there a difference between the rapture, and the second coming? Yes! We pretribulationists have seen some really clear, Biblical evidence, for making distinctions between these two events. Many of you opponents of the pretrib doctrines, can’t see these distinctions even though I can show you overwhelming Biblical evidence that supports a pretribulational rapture – that is, a secret coming of Christ for His people.

Now, I know what all you amillenial people think…I know that in 1 Thes.4:17, there is indeed the word “harpazo” used for the phrase caught up. So, we are definitely agreed on the fact that there is a rapture. What we are not agreed upon, is WHEN will this rapture occur?

Many of you guys argue against the secret rapture, on the basis that it is really hard to conceive of what it might be like for thousands of people to suddenly disappear! Your many joking remarks about those raptured, smacking their heads on the ceiling, false teeth being left behind somewhere, people in the middle of changing their clothes and being secretly wisked up to meet Jesus naked…and car accidents all over the place…pandemonium city! But have hear all these jokes before. They are not Biblical proof of anything.

So, OK…When will the secret rapture occurr? And what is it’s relationship to Christ, at the time of His second coming? If I can prove that the church will be “caught up” into heaven; and that this “gathering together” (2 Thes.2:1), is a separate event from the return of Christ in judgment, then I will have already, more than adequately made my case, and proved Seventh Day Adventists, along with some other Christian groups, as wrong in trying to dismiss the pretrib as false doctrine. Right?

All I need to do now is to show how the dissimilarities between rapture passages, and second coming passages, are significant enough to demonstrate that they are indeed two separate aspects of the same events. In the next post, I will start to deal with relevant Bible texts to prove my point.”

The most definitive texts, to my mind:

And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Luke 17:26-30.

No room there for anything besides destruction on the very same day.

What bothers me most about the rapture doctrine is that it is so often associated with the time-line promoted by the Sunday-worshipping churches. They have the prophetic week at the end of the 2300 days. They believe that the rebuilding of the temple is future, and that Jesus is going to descend upon Jerusalem and usher in the millenium here on earth.

They obviously believe in the biblical day for a year principle, however, they still confuse things by this two thousand some odd years gap doctrine in which they place the 70th week (7 days/7 years) two thousand some odd years into the future from the time of Christ from which there isn't anything in the Bible to back up such a thing.

Very Kool idea DenBorg!

I will have to be away from here a few days as I am licking my wounds from a cycling accident earlier today.

We still had a very nice Sabbath!

"See" you soon.

"Secret Sam"

by the way...your point #3 is true, but I had been planning to supply the Scripture in the next post. I just ran out of time.

I am glad that your accident was not too serious. I hope you heal quickly and get to feeling better soon.

I look forward to hearing from you again soon.

-Dennis