I see value in what Ikan has posted; but also in what Linda posted regarding the sexual sins of some in positions of 'authority'. While it's true that our main focus should be on "whatsoever things are true,...honest,...just,...pure,...lovely, whatsoever things are of good report" (Philippians 4:8), we're also told to "reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine" (2 Timothy 4:2), and to "sigh and...cry for all the abominations that be done" (Ezekiel 9:4). It would be pretty hard to speak out against sin if we could never even speak of sin at all. Like the three monkeys that hear no evil, see no evil, and speak no evil, our witness would be crippled and mute.

Sister White indeed wrote about the danger in attacking other denominations needlessly, in bringing on a time of trouble prematurely by words unwisely chosen. But that doesn't mean we should never speak of sin at all. The light we have doesn't live in a vacuum. We're surrounded by moral darkness until Jesus comes, so it's only natural to speak of such things to a degree. Hearing Christians call sin by its right name is the only way some people will ever know what is sin in God's eyes, and what is not. "Babylon is fallen" is an end-times issue, and we're seeing yet another glaring example of the fact playing out right before our eyes. When prophecy is fulfilled before us, should we not comment on that fact? Even if it involves things that aren't too pleasant? The Bible would be a much smaller book if we took out all the narratives and prophecies that deal with things that aren't too pleasant. We live in an unpleasant world, though hopefully we live in insulation from it, if we're abiding in God's will.

***

Considering some of the good issues Ikan raises:

The Israel-in-prophecy thing is really pertinent these days. The "Christian Right" with their (mis)understanding of the prophecies regarding Israel is having its influence on the shaping of U.S. foreign policy. Writings and web sites such as Steve Wohlberg's should be brought to the attention of as many people as possible:

http://www.truthleftbehind.com/IsraelinProphecy.html

is a good place to start. Also the book Exploding the Israel Deception, available from the site. Sometimes I post at the "Left Behind" web board, and try to point the people there to Pastor Wohlberg's site.

Spiritualism is taking root deeper than ever before, to be sure. In America, shows like "Crossing Over with John Edward" are hypnotizing millions. Just lately, CBS ran the psychic-thriller miniseries "Living With the Dead", starring Ted Danson. The ratings were out the roof. "Psychic hotlines" do booming business. These are all signs of the mindset of the American public...is it any better in other countries, I wonder.

Another thing that gives me pause is the fact that people these days in the U.S. have been shown to put more stock in their feelings than in any belief in an absolute moral truth. Barna Research did a study that's available online at

http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PagePressRelease.asp?PressReleaseID=106&Reference=F

on the subject. Quote: "Less than one out of three born again Christians adopt the notion of absolute moral truth. The surveys also found that few Americans turn to their faith as the primary guide for their moral and ethical decisions."

Wow. If even professing Christians don't rely upon the Bible when it comes to ordinary, every-day decision making, what in the world are they going to do when confronted with demonic miracles, and Satan's glorious impersonation of Christ that will be "unsurpassed by anything that mortal eyes have yet beheld" (GC 624)?

It's like Paul said: "The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." 2 Timothy 4:3,4.

Thank God for the light we have, greater than any on earth. We need to shine this light into the dark places, and light them up too. But to do that, we have to acknowledge the darkness for what it is. We shouldn't dwell on the darkness; but neither should we go to the opposite extreme and refuse even to mention the darkness, either.

[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: John ]

Thanks for the excellent response, John. I agree with most of your reply, however I stand firm at resisting even the "natural tendency" to dwell on the sins of others, especially ones so obviously dark and publically reported as is this case. However turning from evil to search the good is not "living in a vacuum".

I also see that you applied 2 Timothy to those outside of the church, which is a unfruitful. We cannot expect the world, fallen churches and especially leaders in Roman churches to be able to or willing to endure sound doctrine or rebukes or our exhortations; these are Paul's instructs to us in the remnant, and no where else. We must not expect those that have rejected Christ's last message of mercy as enrobed in the Third Angel's Message to have the willingness or power to lead deep christian lives.
This may be the reason some Adventists are "shocked" by the hypocrisy of other denominations, although there is no support for them being able to be righteous if they refuse God's light.

You are quite right about spiritualism's influences, but have you seen this:

"As we near the close of time, there will be greater and still greater EXTERNAL PARADE of heathen power; heathen deities will manifest their signal power [make their unique, miracle working powers], and will exhibit themselves before the cities of the world; and this delineation [Victorian English for portrait or picture] has already begun to be fulfilled. By a variety of images the Lord Jesus represented to John the wicked character and seductive influence of those who have been distinguished for their persecution of God's people.[Who have been the main persecutors of the remnant church throughout the ages?] All need wisdom carefully to search out the mystery of iniquity that figures so largely in the winding up of this earth's history. . . "Testimonies to Ministers p117 para.5

The more I study the Word and the SOP, the more I understand that it is miracle working powers of evil angels that will con the world's masses into looking to that mixture of fallen Protestantism, popery and the supernatural for answers.

Those in "christian" nations are mostly unaware that the 3/4ths of earths people have no connection, concern or insight into what the Vatican is up to or what constitutes Protestantism, let alone Adventism even is.{I refer the skeptical here to http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html} I live in Asia; I often have to explain to others that all christains are not catholoics.

Most of earth's people care little about the latest pontifical shenanigans, and are not surprised at the sins of Rome, the Southern Baptist Union or the GC.

BUT even a hardened communist Chinese atheist will start start searching for some sort of answers when "heathen deities will manifest their signal power", when "dead Uncle Wong" returns to haunt them and point them to a false christianity...Think about it... Brother Ikan

[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: Ikan ]

[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: Ikan ]

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Ikan ]

Ikan, I agree with everything you've posted here. To draw attention to the sins of others just to say "gotcha" is at best questionable, and seems to be along the lines of fault finding - or judging. A religion based on picking out the bad bits hardly has room for the love of Jesus, which illuminates the understanding to grasp the realities of world events. The political influence of right wing Protestants is the only explanation for the USA's support of Israel's unacceptable behaviour on many occasions.

Didn't Mrs White also say it was getting (in her day) to be inappropriate for Christians to be reading the newspapers?

Yes, zyph, Sister White says this:
"The apostle [Peter] sought to teach the believers how important it is to keep the mind from wandering to forbidden themes or from spending its energies on trifling subjects. Those who would not fall a prey to Satan's devices must guard well the avenues of the soul; they must avoid reading, seeing, or hearing that which will suggest impure thoughts. The mind must not be left to dwell at random upon every subject that the enemy of souls may suggest. The heart must be faithfully sentineled, or evils without will awaken evils within, and the soul will wander in darkness. {AH 403.3}
Everything that can be done should be done to place ourselves and our children where we shall not see the iniquity that is practiced in the world. We should carefully guard the sight of our eyes and the hearing of our ears so that these awful things shall not enter our minds. When the daily newspaper comes into the house, I feel as if I want to hide it, that the ridiculous, sensational things in it may not be seen. It seems as if the enemy is at the foundation of the publishing of many things that appear in newspapers. Every sinful thing that can be found is uncovered and laid bare before the world. {AH 403.4}
Those who would have that wisdom which is from God must become fools in the sinful knowledge of this age, in order to be wise. They should shut their eyes, that they may see and learn no evil. They should close their ears, lest they hear that which is evil and obtain that knowledge which would stain their purity of thoughts and acts. And they should guard their tongues, lest they utter corrupt communications and guile be found in their mouths." {Adventist Home page 404.1}

Clear as a bell to me...one must realize that an Adventist's life is a deepening of the sensitivity of the heart to God and dulling of it to the world. This doesn't mean stupidity, but those who think "You gotta know all about sin to reject it." are only rationalizing their own sinful past and/or present.
They have every right to do that: there is no force in true religion. But to call it good, valuable or wise, that I must protest.

Anyone have any thoughts on my previous mention of "heathen deities"???

[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Ikan ]

I think this EGW quote is referring to sin seduction or sin watching, not signs watching.

Watching for the signs leading up to the 2nd coming of Christ is different than reading, for example, about so and so's pornographic activity.

Take the following text as another example:

quote:

---

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

---

We all know what is being spoken about here. All we need to do is to go back and read from the Old Testament what sins were being committed there. It is interesting though that the above text makes it almost seem like normal everyday living, however, it wasn't normal everyday living that brought sbout the Flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Perhaps the above text shows that we should be focusing on the general direction of events rather than the specific sinful events themselves. I don't know. It is just a thought or a wondering on my part.

Ohn the other side of the coin, the Bible says below:

quote:

---

Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

---

So, how do we go about calling out God's people from Babylon unless we focus on the sins of Babylon as a means of showing them why they need to be called out of Babylon??

[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Sorry Daryl: I still cannot see how one can construe the original premise of this forum (the discussion of the sexual sins of Catholic clerics) as "signs". The general gearing up of the casual discussion of other's sexual sins, therefore, would also be another "sign"; a sign of a morbid fascination with darkness, and lack of interest in actual fulfilled prophecy.
No one here is ignorant of the evils in the world, but many are not fully satisfied with all their knowledge of God's desires for His people to search the heritage He has left us concerning what has already passed and what we need to have for our growth in grace as we approach even scarier times ahead. I appeal to all to scan my posts here one more time.

Well, pardon me folks if I feel a little bit like Charlie Brown! After, all, we've been posting news items in this forum for over two years.

This post will self-destruct in 24 hours [because it will be removed by myself].

[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: Linda Sutton ]

I have removed the graphic, but am leaving the post since to remove it would make the next post look out of place.

[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Linda Sutton ]

Linda,

As far as I am concerned, what you have posted in this forum is acceptable to me.

If there are those who have a concern about what has been posted here, they have the choice of not reading what is in this particular forum of MSDAOL.

If they wish to post about what is being posted here, that is OK to me as well. Everybody is entitled to their opinion as long as they respect what is being posted by others including your choice of news topics as the moderator of this particular forum.

With that in mind, let us continue to post any news that is relevant to the end times.

What I have posted here myself isn't agreeing or disagreeing with what anybody is posting here, topic wise or post wise.

[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

This thread has value in that it can serve to promote discussion of what is a valid sign of the 2nd Advent. As has been illustrated here, not everyone agrees on what is as valid sign.

Note that I have not taken a position as to whether of not the sexual sins of Roman Catholic clergy are a sign of the end. Any further comment that I make does not address that question, or indicate my personal position.

But I will refer you to Matthews 24. Please note the last part of vs.6, and the last part of vs. 14. Prior to bothe of these verse various conditions in the world are listed (war, love of sin, etc.), but those lists are all followed by as comments that indicates that the "end" is still in the future. Read Matt. 24 carefully. Some Adventistss look at this fromt he standpoint that war and the other stuff are not real good indicators of the "end," as they will exist right up to the end. Some would say that the best sign in Matt. 24, is the gospit to the entire world.

Again, I am not commenting one way or another as to where I am. But, this thread is serving a purpsoe in bringing out this division in understandign Matt. 24.

My question that I asked before: How should we differ in the way we relate to this sexual sins of RC clergy, and those of our own SDA clergy. I believe that the public awareness of issues with this in the RC Church is currently producing an increase in perception of this problem in the SDA Chruch. i.e. Are we any better than the RC Chruch?

I agree.

We are no less prone to committing this sort of sin as are the clergy of the RC church.

Irrespective of our doctrinal differences, both churches should know better.

So the question is: Is this any more a sin of Babylon than it is a sin of any church?