Would you say, in addition to the message of Jones and Waggoner, that the testimony of the True Witness has anything to do with rebuking sin and sinners, crying aloud and sparing not?

Yes. I think that this is most effectively done when Christ is presented. It is the distinction between Christ and self that is so effective to this end. "When we contemplate His purity and excellence, we shall see our own weakness and poverty and defects as they really are. We shall see ourselves lost and hopeless, clad in garments of self-righteousness, like every other sinner."

Particularly the cross of Christ reveals the sinfullness of sin. When sin is seen in its true character, then those who do not steel themselves against the promptings of the Holy Spirit will be led to repentance. They will not want to do anything which causes such pain to God.

Doesnt the Holy Spirit use truth in all its forms to rebuke sin?

/Thomas

I think that you can just substitute the "temperance" issue below, with abortion and homosexuality today. The worse things get in society, the most worked up Christians are going to get about it, which will cause them to try to counteract it by the Sunday laws to try to make society "moral" again. But these are the same Christians who claim the ten commandments are not binding and they are in a great measure the very cause of society losing it's morality. Its as if the only two sins they recognise are abortion and homosexuality... but they use for themselves the "I am saved by grace" claim.


"And as the claims of the fourth commandment are urged upon the people, it is found that the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath is enjoined; and as the only way to free themselves from a duty which they are unwilling to perform, many popular teachers declare that the law of God is no longer binding. Thus they cast away the law and the Sabbath together. As the work of Sabbath reform extends, this rejection of the divine law to avoid the claims of the fourth commandment will become well-nigh universal. The teachings of religious leaders have opened the door to infidelity, to spiritualism, and to contempt for God's holy law; and upon these leaders rests a fearful responsibility for the iniquity that exists in the Christian world.

Yet this very class put forth the claim that the fast-spreading corruption is largely attributable to the desecration of the so-called "Christian sabbath," and that the enforcement of Sunday observance would greatly improve the morals of society. This claim is especially urged in America, where the doctrine of the true Sabbath has been most widely preached. Here the temperance work, one of the most prominent and important of moral reforms, is often combined with the Sunday movement, and the advocates of the latter represent themselves as laboring to promote the highest interest of society; and those who refuse to unite with them are denounced as the enemies of temperance and reform. But the fact that a movement to establish error is connected with a work which is in itself good, is not an argument in favor of the error. We may disguise poison by mingling it with wholesome food, but we do not change its nature. On the contrary, it is rendered more dangerous, as it is more likely to be taken unawares. It is one of Satan's devices to combine with falsehood just enough truth to give it plausibility. The leaders of the Sunday movement may advocate reforms which the people need, principles which are in harmony with the Bible; yet while there is with these a requirement which is contrary to God's law, His servants cannot unite with them. Nothing can justify them in setting aside the commandments of God for the precepts of men." The Great Controversy, page 587

...But people need to realize that now that the Democrats have realised Bush won largely due to the "morality" issue, suddenly they are starting to use the Bible to reinvent their own beliefs... such as that they believe in "feeding the poor"... and things like that.

Ellen White said Protestants would reach to clasp the hand of Catholicism and Spiritiualism... The New Age Movement is just Spiritualism and Bill and Hillary Clinton are deep into the New Age Movement, along with Al Gore, the tree hugger.

The way I see it is that it doesnt much matter who gets elected, all of these things are destined to happen.... regardless. They will all realize that Sunday is what they have in common.

New Agers (who are deeply involved in Sun Worship) have yet to come to the realization of the pagan Sunday being a part of their heritage. It will be interesting to see how they will all end up joining together as one. They already have started up with the worship of the Virgin Mary now.


While it seems as though the Republicans are now regarded as the champions of morality, we need to remember that Arnold Swartzenagger (cant spell his name right) and some other Republicans too are pro abortion rights and Dick Cheany's own daughter is a lesbian. So I think we are going to see more and more of a "blending in" of these parties.

Revelation says "these will all have one mind"...

I think Bush's election merely brought this "morality" issue to the forefront, along with Christianity. EVERYBODY is going to become "Christian"... I think we will see more and more of that in the future. The Democrats will just be New Age Christians with their own ideas of morality.

This passage says there will be a new and more exalted system of religious faith, one that transcends protestantism and catholicism and spiritualism.

GC 588, 589
Papists, who boast of miracles as a certain sign of the true church, will be readily deceived by this wonder-working power; and Protestants, having cast away the shield of truth, will also be deluded. Papists, Protestants, and worldlings will alike accept the form of godliness without the power, and they will see in this union a grand movement for the conversion of the world and the ushering in of the long-expected millennium. {GC 588.3}

Through spiritualism, Satan appears as a benefactor of the race, healing the diseases of the people, and professing to present a new and more exalted system of religious faith; but at the same time he works as a destroyer. {GC 589.1}

It's interesting that "moral values" was not a part of either party until recently. I think making abortion a part of the national party's campaigns has led to that. While abortion is a 50/50 issue, gay marriage isn't. It will be interesting to see how the Democratic party adjusts. If it stays out on the fringe, I think they'll continue to get killed in elections. The only reason this election was as close as it was, IMO, was because of the MSM (Main Stream Media). This may give the false impression that they're not really that out of touch, after all almost half agreed with them, but that's not really the case. I suspect what you wrote, Claudia, is true, that the Democrats will adjust and the two parties will blend together. I also agree that it doesn't matter who is in power.

However, I think what drives Christ's coming is the Gospel, not current events. In 1888 the Sunday law did not pass by just one vote. Had it passed, Christ still would not have come, as the message God gave to prepare for His coming we rejected to a large extent. When the message of Christ's righteousness is accepted, then the world will be prepared for His coming. "When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own." (COL 69)

Yes, that makes perfect sense, Tom. But it seems as though the situation in the church has pretty much made an about face since the law, law, law days. In the mid 50's a not so subtle shift began, and now it seems like the church has been emphasizing the imputed righteousness of Christ (justification by faith), and soft pedaling the imparted righteousness of Christ (sanctification by faith).

I suspect the shaking will be caused by a reaction against what the liberals deem an imbalanced emphasis on victory over sin. In most cases, whenever the subject of living in harmony with the law of God comes up, people tend to get defensive, and start hurling accusations, insisting that the message is too sin focused, lacking in love, mercy and forgiveness.

Is there a proper definition of the words "liberal" and "conservative" or is it "anyone who does not agree with me"?

The biblical view of "victory over sin" cannot be lacking in "love, mercy and forgiveness" as pure love of God and humans is the goal, Gods mercy is the reason we can even considder it and forgiveness is one of the keys to success.

/Thomas

I view this whole thing as that every time someone like Bill Clinton gets elected President or else the Liberals either make any major moves
--there is a backlash by the Christians and they get all stirred up about it...

Had John Kerry been elected, there is no telling what he wouldve tried to do and then it wouldve just accelerated this whole process and the Christians wouldve been that much more determined to do whatever it was they were going to do.

If we even make it through this next 4 years and someone like Hillary Clinton is elected, then the Christians are REALLY going to be in an uproar and no telling what is going to happen.

Thats one reason why I thought it woul've been a national disaster had Kerry been elected. Either way, actually, we are in trouble. Thats why you should never vote for anyone. I view it as --which one would cause the least amount of trouble and accelerate the process toward the Sunday Law.

But every time there is Liberal movement of any significance that just gets the Christians that much more riled up and it gives them "ideas". The Democrat/Liberal/Hollywood/ New Age Agenda only gives fuel to the fire, just like this Gay Marriage issue.

But now the New Age Liberals have come to the realisation that they need to "get Religion" and start tacking on "Jesus" to everything... like feeding the poor, like taking from the rich to give to the poor, like "social justice" and so on. And they have got to also come to the realisation that they themselves, the Christians, and the Catholics all have one thing in common... SUNDAY.
Then instead of the Democrats causing all the troubles in society, instead WE the Seventh Day Adventists will be viewed as causing all the troubles in society. A few good disaters and also weather-related disasters (as it says in Great Controversy) and they gonna have to point to someone as the cause of God being "angry" enough to make these disasters happen... and they cant point to the liberals anymore because they're "Christians" now... and going along with the Sunday "oneness" plan. But its those pesky Seventh Day Adventists who are halting progress and who are "haters of mankind".


Great Controversy, Page 558
"It is true that spiritualism is now changing its form and, veiling some of its more objectionable features, is assuming a Christian guise. But its utterances from the platform and the press have been before the public for many years, and in these its real character stands revealed. These teachings cannot be denied or hidden.

Even in its present form, so far from being more worthy of toleration than formerly, it is really a more dangerous, because a more subtle, deception. While it formerly denounced Christ and the Bible, it now professes to accept both. But the Bible is interpreted in a manner that is pleasing to the unrenewed heart, while its solemn and vital truths are made of no effect."

[ November 10, 2004, 06:01 AM: Message edited by: Claudia Thompson ]