What I appreciate about the moral influence theory is the emphasis it places on the positive affect Jesus' sacrifice has upon us. The fact He loved us enough to endure all that for us inspires me to serve Him with all of my heart.

What I do not appreciate about the moral influence theory is the idea that the substitutionary death of Jesus was not required to satisfy the just demands of the law, to appease the wrath of God.

There is good reason why God said, "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17) It's because sin is an incurable sickness. Sinners cannot cure themselves. Once infected they are contaminated for life.

To rid ourselves of our sinfulness we must die. The only cure is death. "When this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." (1 Corinthains 15:54)

Sin cannot exist without a host. The only way to purify the universe of sin is to eliminate sinners. However, in Christ God has provided a way of escape. Jesus became sin for us. He earned the right to own our sin and second death when He lived and died the perfect life and death.

The death of Jesus is not the end of sin and death. Instead, His death is beginning of a process that is necessary to eliminate sin and death. Our sin and second death are contained within the body and blood of Jesus, where they are safely quarantined until they can be eliminated in the lake of fire.

Jesus' death, therefore, did not eliminate our sin and second death. Instead, it earned Him the right to place them upon the head of Satan, our scapegoat. It is the death of Satan in the lake of fire that eliminates our sin and second death.

The death of Jesus satisfied the just and loving demands of the law, and it appeased the wrath of God. But it did not eliminate our sin and second death, which also is required to satisfy the law and the wrath of God.

Jesus did not die our second death, as evidenced by the fact He is still alive. It is Satan who will die our second death with our sins. It requires two goats to saves sinners, to solve the sin problem, to eliminate sin and death from the universe.

No, Satan's death doesn't save us in the same sense Jesus' death saves us. Only the Lord's goat was slain, only its blood was applied to atone for sins. But the Scapegoat is the means by which our sins and second death are eliminated forever.

I hope I didn't kill this thread.

No, just tired and have not had the time to write. I need to comment on Jesus dieing the second death. Satan and the Sinners do NOT rise from the second death because they would not allow God to and God will not voilate their will. The second death is not the NUMBER of times they die, it will be the first time Satan died, the third time certan people involved with the death of Jesus would have died. It is the method of death that is different, and it is not that someone dieing from the second death is not able to live again, it is that they won't live again.

Jesus did indeed die the second death on the cross, the death that comes from choosing sepperation from the only source of life.

In the garden through the cross we see what sin does to us. The cross added in shows that an imposed pennalty and imposed suffering is not as bad as the real suffering of wanting to be with the beautiful God, but choosing against our deepest desire. Jesus differed from the sinner in that the sinner lets their sins sepperate themselves from their deepest desire, while the trinity let our sins fall upon them, knowing that if they did not let sin sepperate them, that sin would sepperate and kill us.

Jesus in his humanity died, but all three members of the trinity bore our sins, while in their divinity the Father and Spirit could not die as Jesus was able to, they expirenced the Gethsemane horror until the resurection. Jesus was tempted to allow us to bear our own sins and return to the Father and Spirit. The Spirit was tempted to take over control of Christ's will, the Father was tempted to feel that allowing sin to sepperate himself from his son was too great. Had they failed, they would have sined against the law of self sacrificing love. God's law would have been to great for the members of the trinity, how much more created beings. Sin would have won, the beings on the other planets, the angels, Enoch, Moses and Elijah would have seen that God was not who God claimed to be, the life giving righteousness by faith relationship would have been eternally severed and would have destroyed the universe.

But they held to the law of self sacrificing love. No matter how much the members of the trinity wanted to be together, they loved us even more and was willing to let sin torcher them, killing Jesus, instead of allowing it to torcher and kill us.

The cross shows us what sin would do to us if we do not allow Christ to intervean and take my sin upon himself instead. The resurection shows us that if we choose to be with God, all the sins of the world can not keep us appart.

Kevin, while we disagree as to which death Jesus died, I agree with your explanation of the self-sacrificing love the Father, Son, and Spirit demonstrated. I also agree that the influence of such love motivates us to imitate the sinless example of Jesus. However, what you didn't say about why else Jesus had to die is what concerns me.

It was just a quick reply after working all night, getting ready to go to a doctor's appointment then returning to work for a double shift.

Oops! Wrong thread. I moved this post to the right one, the one about getting baptized at the right time.