The continuation of "the workings of the Spirit of God in clear and unmistakable lines," (1SM130) through Elder A.T. Jones at the 1893 General Conference: PART 9

"Don't you see then how that the works take care of themselves in him who has faith in Jesus Christ,--I do not mean that satanic belief; I mean the man who has faith. Then don't you see what those people miss who get their minds on works, more than on Christ? They miss the very incentive and the very power that alone can do the things that are good, to reach and minister to the sick in the right spirit, to visit the poor and minister to them in the right spirit. Have you not seen people that have ministered to the poor and the sick, in a way that makes those people feel worse than if they had not gone there at all? That is not the kind of ministering Jesus Christ does. No, sir. It is Christ in you. And when He goes with you and in you there stands the testimony, 'It will win even from worldlings the statement, They are like Jesus.'

Did not Paul strive, says one, and does not the Savior say, 'Strive to enter in at the strait gate'? Yes. But how can I strive when I have nothing to strive with? 'Without Me you can do nothing.'--how much? (Congregation: 'Nothing.') Is that so? (Congregation: 'Yes.') Then without Christ I want to know how you are going to strive. Paul says, "I also labor, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily." Col.1:29. I want you to think of that. 'Without Me ye can do nothing.' 'Dead in trespasses and sins.' Is that so? How can a dead man strive? 'When we were without strength." Rom.5:6. Were we withouth strength? (Congregation: 'Yes.') That is so. Then how can a man strive who has no strength? Don't you see, then, that it is an utter satanic perversion of the divine idea, to go to striving and working and wearing the life out in order to get to Christ to obtain this gift of justification. No; it is the free gift of God to every man, and every man who receives it, receives Jesus Christ Himself indeed.

Then where does the striving come in? To find the Lord? or to be used by the power which the Lord gives, which He puts into us? Which is it? 'The love of Christ constraineth us.' 2 Cor.5:14. Constrains, impels, drives on with an irresistible force. That is the idea that is in the word striving. Other translations give it, 'agonize' to enter into the strait gate. And they do really and bodily agonize and wear themselves out, doing penance, just like any other Catholic--and they will do it all in order to move the Lord, so that He will have pity on them. That is not the thought.

It is agonizing; but everybody who is acquainted with it, knows that the word is taken from the Greek games, the Greek races. One who entered the games was an agonistes. They started out to run a race. Now what does he do? He just strains every nerve to win the race; every faculty of his being is devoted to the object before him, isn't it? (Congregation: 'Yes, sir.') Now that is bodily exercise; that is bodily striving, agonizing. Is this that kind that Christ is talking about? (Congregation: 'No.') What kind is this? Spiritual. Yes, of course. Then carrying that thought from bodily exercise, that bodily straining of every nerve,--carrying that into the spiritual realm, what does it signify? Doesn't it signify that complete surrender of the will to Christ, that surrender of the heart, and the affections to Him, that makes no reserve? Then His power moving in us, His divine power urging us on, don't you see? I say again, that in all cases he who believes in Jesus Christ most fully will work most for Him.

Now let us have this word, and that will be the best close I could make to the whole thing to-night. 'Steps to Christ,' page 71. 'The heart that rests most fully upon Christ will be the most earnest and active in labor for Him.' Amen. (Congregation: 'Amen.') Do not forget that now. Do not think that the man who says that he rests wholly upon Jesus Christ is either a physical or spiritual loafer. If he shows this loafing in his life, he is not resting on Christ at all, but on his own self.

No, sir; the heart that rests most fully upon Christ will be most active in labor for Him. That is what real faith is. That is the faith that will bring to you the outpouring of the latter rain; that is the faith that will bring to you and me the teaching of righteousness according to righteousness-- the living presence of Jesus Christ--to prepare us for the loud cry and the carrying of the third angel's message in the only way in which it can be carried from this Conference." A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C. Bulletin, p.310,302.
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THE FAITH THAT WILL BRING TO US THE LIVING PRESENCE OF JESUS CHRIST.

"Into the hearts of all those who are united to God by FAITH, the golden oil of LOVE flows freely to shine out again in good WORKS, in real, heartfelt service for God." C.O.L.419.

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited March 06, 2001).]

The continuation of "the ministrations of the Holy Spirit of God" (1 SM130) through A.T. Jones at the 1893 General Conference Session: PART 10

"The man that is so anxious and so dreadfully afraid that you will not let him have any works to do, and that you are going to destroy all his works--if Christ is dwelling in the heart, he will find works to do. Brethren, don't be so anxious about works; find the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will find work, more than you can do. (Congregation: 'Amen!') But the difficulty is, when the people get their minds on works, and works, and works, instead of upon Jesus Christ in order to work, they pervert the whole thing. Satan does not care how much a man professes justification by faith, and righteousness by faith, so long as he keeps his mind on works. That is just the thought that is before us here in this definition of faith that we read the other night. Let me read it again. Page 63, Steps to Christ: 'When we speak of faith there is a distinction that should be borne in mind. There is a kind of belief that is wholly different from faith. The existence and power of God, the truth of His word, are facts that even Satan and his hosts cannot at heart deny."

They believe that, but what power does their believing it bring to them to make them righteous, or to enable them to do good works? What power is there in their belief? What power does that give to them? (Congregation: 'None.') No, it is away off there, simply a theory, held off to look at, held as a theory, held as a creed; and so, a spirit even, can believe in the existence and power of God; he can believe the truth of the Bible; he can believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, the holy One of God, and be a devil. Many can believe all this in this way and profess justification by faith at the same time; and they can be great sticklers for what they call 'good works' at the same time. Yes they can work the very skin of their bones in order to do good, in order to be righteous, in order to move God, as we read the other night. You know they do it. You know they make pilgrimages, and do penances, and fairly wear themselves out; and in addition to these things they will shut themselves off from every earthly comfort.

But who is doing the work? Who in these things does the work? Self does the work in order to be righteous, in order to have that treasure of merit that will give an increase of grace in this world and an increase of glory in Heaven. That is what it is for, is it not? (Congregation: 'Yes.') Who is doing this then? (Congregation: 'Self.') Yes sir. Has the mind, has the heart been yielded to God? Are the affections fixed upon Him? Is the surrender of all to Him? No. And therefore it is still self in all. Who then is to do the work in order that it may be good works always? Let us read it: 'If Christ is dwelling in our hearts, He will work in us 'both to will and to do of His good pleasure.'" A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C. Bulletin, p.298.
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THAT IT MAY BE GOOD WORKS ALWAYS!

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited March 06, 2001).]

The continuation of "the ministrations of the Holy Spirit of God in clear and unmistakable lines," (1SM130)through Elder A.T. Jones at the 1893 General Conference: Part 11:

"I received a letter a little while ago from Brother Starr in Australia, I will read two or three sentences because they come in well just at this place in our lessons:--'Sister White says that we have been in the time of the latter rain since the Minneapolis meeting.'

That is just what we have found in our own study of these lessons, is it not? Brethren, how much longer is the Lord going to wait before we will receive it? He has been trying these four years to have us receive the latter rain, how much longer is He going to wait before we receive it? And the fact of the matter is, something is going to be done. Those who will seek the Lord that way, who will receive His message that way, will get what He wants to give. Those who will not do that will be left to themselves, and when that is done it will be forever. And that is the fearfulness of the situation at this meeting; that is what lends to this meeting its fearful character. The danger is that there will be some here who have resisted this for four years, or perhaps who have not resisted it that long, who will now fail to come to the Lord in the way to receive it, and fail to receive it as the Lord gives it, and will be passed by. A decision will be made by the Lord, by ourselves in fact, at this meeting. On which side are you going to be found?

Here is another word that teaches the same thing that we had last night in our lesson, to receive the word of God just as it is, just as He says it, with no question of our own. Brother Starr says that he was talking with Sister White one day about the angels at Mt.Sinai at the giving of the law, and he says this:--

"She saw that the angels, ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, surrounded the people of God as they assembled around the mountain, and all above them, thus making a great living tabernacle from which every evil angel was excluded; that not one word that was to come from the voice of Jesus should be altered in any mind, or one suggestion of doubt, or evil, to a soul, be made."

Now that is what we want here. (Congregation: 'Amen.') What we want right here is for each one to just put up his own prayer himself, for himself, to the Lord to cover us with such a canopy as that at this Institute, that when the words of the Lord are read, not one word shall be altered in any mind from just what God speaks, and that not one suggestion of doubt or evil shall come to a single soul; but that we, each one may receive just what the Lord says in His own way, as He says it, and as He means it.

Then further from Brother Starr: "In a late testimony to an individual here, Sister White was forbidden to send it to him in writing, but to read it personally, for the reason that evil angels are at work substituting words for those that are written. Other words are pronounced in his ears and he gets a meaning just opposite from that designed of God."

Well if that man needs that, is he the only one in the world that needs it? If Satan is working that way, is he going to confine himself to Australia? Then don't you and I need to have our ears anointed as well as our eyes, that we may hear? And does not that word of Jesus, 'Take heed how ye hear,' come to us?" A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C. Bulletin, p.377.
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TAKE HEED HOW YOU HEAR!

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited March 06, 2001).]

The continuation of "the movings of the Spirit of God in clear and unmistakable lines" (1SM130) through Elder A.T. Jones, at the 1893 General Conference: PART 12

"Now turn again to Romans 4th chapter. We want to read of the righteousness of God, and while we read of this righteousness of God, we want to receive it just as the Lord has spoken it. Don't forget now, we want that canopy of angels over us and around us, that no word may be perverted to our understanding. We want to receive it just as He gave it.

'What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.'

What was it that was counted unto him for righteousness? (Congregation: 'He believed God.') When God said a thing, Abraham believed it. He said 'that is so.' What was it that the Lord said to him? Let us turn and read, because that is important to us. Genesis 15:4-6. The Lord "brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the Lord; and He counted it unto him for righteousness.'

Now do you believe that Abraham became righteous in just that way? (Congregation: 'Yes.') Honestly now, do you? (Congregation: 'Yes, sir.') Do you know he did? (Congregation: 'Yes.') The Lord called Abraham out and said, Look at the stars and tell the number of them, so shall thy seed be. Abraham said, 'Amen.' And the Lord said, 'You are right.'

Now do you know that it was as simple a transaction as that? Was it just like calling you and me out of this Tabernacle, and the Lord saying to us, See the stars; tell the stars if thou be able to number them. Yes, so shall such and such be. And we say, 'Amen.' And He should say, 'You are righteous.' Suppose the Lord called you and me out to-night. No, he can do it without calling us out. He called Abraham out doors, to show him the stars; but He can show us sins without calling us out doors. Has He shown you a great many sins? Has He? (Congregation: 'Yes.') Now He says, If thou be able to number them, 'they shall be white as snow.' What do you say? (Congregation: 'Amen.') Then what does the Lord say? (Congregation: 'You are righteous.') Are you? (Voice: 'Yes.') Do people become righteous as easy as that? Is it as simple a transaction as that? (Congregation: 'Yes.') Amen. Thank the Lord. Now let us turn again to the 4th of Romans and get the particular verse where this is told. Rom.4:23,24. 'Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe in Him that raised up Jesus from the dead.'" A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C. Bulletin, p.377,378.

"THE MATTER OF SALVATION IS JUST AS SIMPLE AS ABC. BUT WE DONT UNDERSTAND IT." F.W.64
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BELIEVE THE WORD BECAUSE IT IS THE TRUTH, BECAUSE GOD SAYS IT, AND YOUR FAITH IS COUNTED UNTO YOU FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited March 06, 2001).]

The continuation of "the workings of the Spirit of God in clear and unmistakable lines" (1SM130) through Elder A.T. Jones at the 1893 General Conference: PART 13

"Some of the brethren were saying this morning in the social meeting, that last night they felt as though they would like to praise the Lord out loud, but they thought they had better not. 'Quench not the Spirit.' If you want to praise the Lord for anything, the Lord tells you to do it. We might as well start here as any other time to have Seventh-day Adventists praise the Lord, or say, 'Praise the Lord,' in meeting. We might as well start that here as anywhere.

What the Lord said to Abraham, Abraham believed: And what He says to you and me, you and I believe, then we get the same results. It is not some particular thing that the Lord says, that we must believe in order to be righteous; whatever He says believe it, and then He says, 'you are right.'

I would like to know whether it is not so, that when the Lord says a thing He is right? (Congregation: 'Yes.') Then when I say 'That is so,' am I not right? (Congregation: 'Yes.') What in the world hinders me from being right? Can you tell? I will say it again: When the Lord says a thing, is He right? (Congregation: 'Yes.') He is right in saying it; then when I say 'That is so,' when I say, 'Amen,' when I say 'be it so,' when I say, 'Yes, that is so,' then am I not right? Yes. Am I not right just as certainly as He is? Certainly. Can even He say I am wrong? (Congregation: 'No.') When you say the same thing, can He say that you are wrong? (Congregation: 'No.') Well then, when we are in such a situation that the Lord Himself cannot say that you and I are wrong, I would like to know what in the world is the reason we are not right? And believing God puts us in just that situation, as he did Abraham. I would like to know what can keep us out of Heaven then? What can keep us out of the kingdom of God, then?

The only thing that can keep you and me out of the kingdom of God is to tell the Lord that He lies; and if you and I will stop that business we will get into Heaven all right. That is just what people need to do, to stop telling the Lord that He lies. 'He that believeth not God hath made Him a liar.' 1 John 5:10. But whoever would make God a liar, is a liar himself, and liars cannot get into the kingdom of God.--Without are liars' and all those other people referred to in Rev.21:8,27, and 22:15. Then the thing we want to do is to stop lying. Let us quit right now. Stop lying. No difference what the Lord says, you say, 'That is so.'

Don't you see this is the whole story, and the very idea that Brother Haskell was trying hard to inculcate upon us here in our lessons, that there is salvation in every line of the Scriptures. For God says it, don't He? Well, when God says it, and we say it, then we are righteous, that is the end of it. God said that to Abraham; Abraham said, 'Amen, that is so, I take that.' So this shows that there is salvation in every line of the Scriptures, in every thing God says." A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C.Bulletin, p.378.
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THE MATTER OF SALVATION IS JUST AS SIMPLE AS ABC. BUT WE DONT UNDERSTAND IT! f.w.64

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited March 06, 2001).]

The continuation of "the workings of the Spirit of God in clear and unmistakable lines," (1SM130) through A.T. Jones at the 1893 General Conference: PART 14

"The story is simple enough, the mischief of it is, though, that we allow so much of Satan's devices to get in to mystify it. That is the mischief of it. God does not want that. He wants it to be just as simple as He has told it; and He has told it so simply that a little child can understand it and receive it. And you who do not receive it as a little child, cannot receive it. So I say again, that it is no difference what God says or when He says it; whatever He says, we, like Abraham, say, 'Amen, Lord I believe that, that is so.' Then He says you are right. And you are right, too.

Let us read on now, in Rom.4:3-5. 'For what saith the Scriputre? Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.'

Believeth on him that justifieth who? (Congregation: 'The ungodly.') Who is it, in this world, that the Lord justifies? (Congregation: 'The ungodly.) The ungodly; I am glad of it; for that assures me everlasting salvation. If it were otherwise there would be no hope for me. If God justified people who were only half saints that would leave me out. If He justified people who had only one good thing, that would leave me out. If He justified people who had only a little good about them, that would leave me out. But, thank the Lord, He is so good, He loves me so much, He has such wondrous power, the divine power of His righteousness is so great, that when He pronounces that word upon such a corrupt sinner as I am it makes me through and through righteous in the sight of God. (Congregation: 'Amen.') That is the worth of God's word 'righteousness.'

And because He is so good, because there is such divine power in His righteousness, and because He justifies the ungodly, therefore I have the perfect security of His everlasting salvation. Then what in the world is going to keep me from being glad? Can you imagine anything that is going to keep me from being glad? Can you imagine anything that is going to keep you from being glad? It is not enough for me to be glad; I want you to be glad; I can attend to my part of it. (Voice: 'I am glad.') Amen.

"To him that worketh not.' Yes, if it required works I could not do enough. If there was anything at all required it would leave me out. But O, as we read the other night, ye have 'sold yourself for naught' and 'ye are redeemed without money.' But not without a price; but lo, He has paid the price. And the blessing of it is that He was rich enough to pay the price, and the other blessing is He was good enough to spend all His riches in paying the price, that He might have me. He can have me.

I have heard brethren say, 'I thank the Lord I have confidence in Him.' I thank the Lord He has confidence in me! I think it is little enough for a man, for whom the Lord does that much, to have confidence in the Lord; but to think that the Lord would make such a wondrous investment in me with the confidence of ever getting the worth of it; His confidence in me I cannot grasp. That is too wonderful for me. And I am thankful that the Lord had that much confidence in His risk upon me. For that reason I am so glad I dont know what else to do. Brethren, the Lord is good. (Congregation: 'Amen.') Then let us trust Him." A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C. Bulletin, p.379.
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NOTHING CAN TAKE THE PLACE OF SIMPLE FAITH c.o.l.159.

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited March 06, 2001).]

The continuation of "the ministrations of the Spirit of God in clear and unmistakable lines" (1SM130) through Elder A.T. Jones, at the 1893 General Conference: Part 15

"'As David describeth the blessedness of the man'? Well, I should say so. I should say so. The blessedness of the man 'unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.' Brethren, do you know the blessedness of that man? or are there some in this house who know only the distressedness of that man, who tries to get it by works? There is no blessedness of that kind; the Bible does not describe any blessedness of that kind. That is all distressedness only, and you know it. But God imputeth righteousness without works saying, 'O the blessedness of the man.'

There is a blessedness to that man; I tell you there is. O the blessedness of the man to whom He will not impute sin. To whom the Lord will not impute sin because he has received the gift of Jesus Christ, and all that God has given in Him, and when He looks at that man, He sees Jesus Christ; He does not impute sin to that man at all. Oh the blessedness of the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin!

'Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? For we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.' Three times, you see, there inside nine verses, three times the Lord has said it over, FAITH COUNTS FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Look at it. 'Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness.' 'To him that believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.' 'We say that FAITH WAS RECKONED TO ABRAHAM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.' Brethren, let us do like Abraham did; let us say, 'Amen.' (Congregation: 'Amen.') Counting that what God has promised He is able to perform.' (Congregation: 'Amen.') And then thank the Lord that He imputes to us righteousness, and makes us free.

'How was it then reckoned? When he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision?' Did not he have to go and circumcise himself and all his house before he could be righteous? (Congregation: 'No, sir.') 'When he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? When he was a Gentile. Is that so? (Congregation: 'Yes, sir.') Abraham was counted righteous when he was a Gentile? A heathen? (Congregation: 'Yes, sir.') Before he was curcumcised? 'And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness' that he had? (Congregation: 'Righteousness of the faith which he had.') Doesn't it say, he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness which he had? (Congregation: 'No; 'A seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had.') Yes, sir; Yes, sir; 'he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had.' (Congregation: 'Amen.') A seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had; not the righteousness that he had; but the righteousness of the faith which he had; because the righteousness that he had came by the faith that he had.

'That he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised.' Is that so? Father of all them that believe God. (Congregation: 'Amen.') All them that believe. Is that so? (Congregation: 'Yes, sir.') That righteousness might be imputed unto them also. He is the father of all them that believe, what for? 'That righteousness might be imputed unto them also.' Come along then. 'Father of all them that believe.' No wonder he could not count them, only the mind of God could count the seed of Abraham. They are indeed numberless as the stars, but lo, of the stars it is said, 'He calleth them all by name, and the blessing of it is, He is going to give us a new name. I tell you, brethren, the Lord loves us. Indeed He does." A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C.Bulletin, p.380.
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FAITH COUNTS FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS FOR "FROM THE HEART MEN BELIEVE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS."

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited March 06, 2001).]

Hello Advent Believer

Thankyou for all your efforts here. I have enjoyed reading through your posts. You are putting a lot of work into this!

As I understand it, the purpose of this particular thread is for people to question the beliefs of the SDA Church; and I guess I am wondering if you have questioned anything yet? Did I miss that somewhere?

Don't stop, just because of my questions! I want to read your next post/s.

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Courage is fear that has
said it's prayers.
Therefore, the Bible
says: "Be of good
courage!"

The continuation of "the workings of the Spirit of God in clear and unmistakable lines" (1SM130) through Elder A.T. Jones at the 1893 General Conference: PART 16

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure.' Oh! The Lord wants His promise to be sure to us, does He? And in order that it might be sure to us, where did He put it? 'Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure.' Look now; think of that carefully. I will say it slowly. 'Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace.' The word 'that' is what I am after. What does it mean? In order that, just this way. 'That it might be by grace.' Then it is of grace, is it? (Congregation: 'Yes.') It is of faith, that it might be by grace; what for? 'That it might be sure.' Then he who receives anything from God by faith, he is the man that is sure of that thing, isn't he? (Congregation: 'Yes.') And he who thinks of getting anything from God in any other way than by faith, never can be sure that he has it, because in fact he does hot have it at all. Do you see that? (Congregation: 'Yes.') Let us act that way.

'Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all.' Good. (Congregation: 'Amen.') To all. To all. 'To the end the promise might be sure to all the seed.' To Abraham He said, 'I have made thee a father of many nations, before Him whom he believed, even God; who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.' What does He do? (Congregation: 'Quickeneth.') What is that? (Congregation: 'Makes alive.') Giveth life unto the dead. 'Calleth those things that be not as though they were.' When He calls a thing that is not as though it were, then is it? (Congregation: 'Yes.') Did He not do that when He made the worlds? There were no worlds; He called them; what then? (Congregation: 'They were.') There was no light; He called the light; 'There was light.'

In me is no righteousness; here is all ungodliness; here is all uncleanness; God has set forth that same One who declared the word and the worlds came, and who declared the word 'light,' and light came--He has set forth that same One to declare righteousness in place of this body of sin. (Congregation: 'Praise the Lord.') In this place, this body, the character of sin, He calls that which is not as though it were, and, thank the Lord, it is. (Congregation: 'Amen.') And I am glad of it. Calleth those things that be not as though they were.' A sinner is not righteous; the ungodly are ungodly; but God calls that which is not, as though it were, and it is. (Congregation: 'Amen.') It is." A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C.Bulletin, p.380,381.
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IT IS OF FAITH THAT IT MIGHT BE BY GRACE. WHAT FOR? THAT THE PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT MIGHT BE SURE TO ALL!

TO BE CONTINUED!

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited March 06, 2001).]

Hi KingDavid! I am encouraged in that you appreciate what I have posted. I find these messages so comforting. Truly it is "heavenly illumination," to me anyway!

I am not sure what you meant by your other comment. All I can tell you is that we are under obligation to believe these messages because they are "the movings of the Spirit of God," the message of the righteousness which is of God by faith! These messages are to be repeated for the last time. The church will have a last opportunity to accept this message or else she will sealed her final rejection of God's mercy as the Jewish nation did in 34 AD. This latter rain message has been long over due, dont you think? God bless! ab

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited February 24, 2001).]