Looking at the big picture first.

Before 1888 what was the call to the SDA Denomination & their responce? What conditions caused this and resulted from this ? Jones & Waggoner gave a sixteen point reply from Scripture ate the end of their contributions as speakers. Does anyone have that reference with the Bible passages. My copy was destroyed in the Cambridge Ohio flood a few years ago.

During and after 1888 what was the call to the SDA Denomination & their responce? What conditions caused this and resulted from this ?

During & after the 1950's what was the call to the SDA Denomination & their responce? What conditions caused this and resulted from this ?

What happened in (1888 & 1950's) & the issues involved and their results.

Was our responce to 1888 & 1950's not so bad, or the disaster that created the long delay in the Second Coming ?

Accurate historical evidence & inspiration focusing right to the point to answer that specifically will be needed.

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Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited March 02, 2001).]

Hello Everyone,

Okay Edward, great questions. I believe AB shared quotes to the effect that because the leading brethren rejected the message of Jones and Wagoner that a long delay resulted. However, I don't know if we can attribute the fact that we still here today to what the church officials did back in 1888 or even the 1950's.

We must make doubly sure we are not guilty of saying - "My Lord delayeth his coming" - by trying to explain that Jesus has not returned yet because the leadership has not corporately repented for our pioneers rejecting the message of Jones and Waggoner.

There are other reasons mentioned in the SOP as to why Jesus hasn't returned yet. See 1 SM 68 and GC 458 and CS 52. But if we insist that no matter what Jesus can't come until the church officially repents for rejecting J&W - as if that were still true today - then we are making the return of Christ dependent upon church leadership. Are you sure you want to give that kind of power to the church leaders?

Yes, the latter rain was stopped or delayed by the rejection of the message of J&W. But is that still true today? That is, God can't send the latter rain now because of what happened back in 1888? According to the book LDE in the chapter "The Latter Rain" she says the latter rain will come during the mark of the beast crisis to ripen the harvest and to empower the 144,000 to endure the great time of trouble after probation closes.

From what I've read on the J&W situation and the reasons Ellen gives for the delay I get the distinct impression that when personal piety results in enough church members seeking and saving the lost the world will take notice and start enforcing the MOB which will then lead into God pouring out the LR in due season which swells to a loud cry just before probation closes. See quotes referenced above.

Therefore, if I'm reading things correctly, God is waiting for us to get busy saving souls for the kingdom before He sends the LR, and not that He's waiting for the clergy leadership to officially repent of rejecting the messages of J&W. Thus, I see the power to hasten or delay the coming of Christ having more to do with our personal and collective witness than anything else.

And yes, I realize we must also be experiencing righteousness by faith too, which requires the correct understanding of the message.

Did I miss the boat?

Mike

Dear Mike, last nite I sat down at the computer to answer your questions. I clicked on the Submit button and then I received a message to the effect that I had not entered my password correctly. I was instructed to click on the Back button which I did to correct my password and everything I had typed disappeared as in thin air. There was no way to retrieve it. I was tired and I just went to bed. So I will make another attempt at answering your questions in the next post.

Ed, thanks for asking those questions. Its good to know that there are others out there who have done their homework. You and I dont know each other from Adam and amazingly we seem to be speaking the same language. Its very refreshing to say the very least of it.

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited March 03, 2001).]

Mike, to begin with I thought I had made it clear (may be I didn't) in my posts what I understood by "corporate" repentance. I referred to chapter nine of the book of Daniel. I believe Daniel's prayer (verses 4-19) show what corporate repentance is. If I understand these verses, it is an individual work. It may be that Wieland and Short have said that the latter rain will not come until the church repents "corporately," from top to bottom of the rank and file. I personally dont believe that. As you said, all it takes is a sufficient number of members who, instead of pointing the finger of accusation, will, like Daniel, pray and repent for those who wont or cant pray or repent for themselves. Thats what Moses did. He pleaded for a guilty nation as Christ did. Those who are imbued with the Spirit of Christ know the way of the Lord which is one of humility at every step. As they plead for others, it is with a deep sense of their own helpless unworthiness. So there is no trace of self-righteousness in them, otherwise they would be nauseating both to men and God.

As far as the latter rain is concerned, I believe that anyone who takes the time to prayerfully read every single post in this thread, should be able to appreciate "the workings of the Spirit of God in clear and unmistakable lines" which, if accepted by the will and accepted into the heart, will bring to him personally the blessing of Abraham so that he can ask for the promise of the Spirit in perfect confidence. Its up to us individually what we will do with this message. It is the only message that can bring to us the outpouring of the Spirit in large measure. It has been kept intact for us in the 1893 General Conference Bulletin. Thank God!

Mike, I realize that we do not see eye to eye as to the identity of "the glorious land" in Daniel 11:41. I believe it refers to our beloved SDA church, which everyone will agree is "Modern Israel." If I am understanding you correctly, you believe it refers to Jerusalem in the Middle East. You have demonstrated that the only way one can arrive at this conclusion is by adopting the dual method of interpretation, the geographical and spiritual. But I believe that in order to be consistent, it can only be the one and that is the spiritual or gospel one.

And if we consider the fact that the message which was to lighten the earth with its glory (1888 message) was resisted and kept away from the world in a large degree (1 SM 234,235) and the fact that we have compromised the pillars of our faith between 1955 and 1957 and that as a result we immediately pusblished a book which contained the declaration that thenceforth we were "one with the different christian denominational groups in the fundamentals of the faith delivered to the saints," (Questions on Doctrine, p.32) then it should not be too difficult to see that Daniel 11:30 and 41 point to Modern Israel.

Is it not significant that since the compromises in the 1950s we have had congenial fellowship with the Sunday-keeping churches? And is it not significant that ever since then the WCC has recognized us and that we are now numbered among the churches as a Christian denomination as opposed to an anti-christian cult? This is how all Christendom viewed us until 1958 because, of course, of our Sanctuary teaching and what our position had been on the human nature of Christ. These two pillars of our faith had to be repudiated in order to win their approval and anyone who was holding on to these two pillars of our faith was said to belong to the "lunatic fringe" or was a "wild-eyed irresponsible" in the church.

And this is of little consequence?!! As we study the history of the Advent Movement, it becomes very clear that we are living in the time of "added probation" and that the Lord will give a last opportunity to His professed people to fulfill their God given task and if they refuse this last offer of pardon for betraying sacred trusts, and the offer of salvation only through the merits of the blood of Christ (T.M.97), like the Jews, we too will be rejected and the bearers of the message will be forced to go out and give the message to the rest of the world as the apostles and their converts did after 34 AD. See C.O.L.294,304.

I hope this helps answer your questions somewhat!

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited March 03, 2001).]

The continuation of "the workings of the Spirit of God in clear and unmistakable lines," (1SM130) through Elder A.T. Jones at the 1893 General Conference: PART 20

"Let us not question how that can be. When the Lord speaks, that is the end of the whole story, no difference what He says; that is the end of it; and we say, 'Lord, that's so.' Now, let us go together tonight, and we will arrive at that place where every one of us can KNOW that we have the blessing of Abraham; and then we can ask God for His Spirit in perfect confidence, and wait to receive it, as He gives it in His own good time.

Let us see what the Lord has done, and how He works, and how He brings us up to that place. Let us begin where He began. We will read first from Eph.1:3-6. That takes us to the point where God began concerning us, and that will be as far back as we need to go. The third verse:--

'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.' What is it He 'hath' done? (Congregation: 'Blessed us.') Is it so? (Congregation: 'Yes.') Has done it? (Congregation: 'Yes.') He has blessed us with how many blessings? (Congregation: 'All spiritual blessings.') All the blessings He has? He has given us all? (Congregation: 'Yes.') How? (Congregation: 'In Christ.') In Christ. Then in giving Christ, what did God give? (Congregation: 'All spiritual blessings.') All the spiritual blessings that He had.

Well then, when you and I believe in Jesus Christ, are we not blessed? Have not we all the blessings that the Lord has? Then what is going to bother us? A person that is blessed like that, is he going to be anything else than happy? (Congregation: 'No.') Can he have the blues? (Congregation: 'No.') Can he get into the sulks because things don't go just right? (Congregation: 'No.') They are going just right any way. However things go they can't take his blessings away. 'All things work together for good to them that love God.'

But the fourth verse is the one particularly that I want to read:--'According as he hath chosen us.' Will choose us? (Congregation: 'Hath chosen us.') Has He? (Congregation: 'Yes.') When did He do it? (Congregation: 'Before the foundation of the world.') Thank the Lord! 'Before the foundation of the world" He chose you and me. (Congregation: 'Praise the Lord.') Now, will you say 'Amen' to that every time? (Congregation: 'Amen!') I do not mean just now. Will you say it all the time? (Congregation: Yes.')

How long is that Scripture going to remain there? (Congregation: 'Forever.') Then how long is it going to be true that 'He hath chosen you before the foundation of the world?' (Congregation: 'Always.') Then how long are you going to be bothered to know whether you are the Lord's or not? Hasn't He chosen you? Hasn't He chosen you? (Congregation: 'Yes.') What did He do it for? Because He wanted us? Did He? (Congregation: 'Yes.') He chose me because He wanted me, and He shall have me. I am not going to rob Him and disappoint His choice. He has chosen us, hasn't He? (Congregation: 'Yes.') 'Before the foundation of the world.' Now the rest of the verse: 'That we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.' His blessed purpose is, He wants us to 'be holy and without blame before Him in love.' Then we can let Him have His own way, because it is our everlasting salvation to let Him do it." A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C.Bulletin, p.400, 401.
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ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE THE WORD OF GOD.

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited March 06, 2001).]

The continuation of "the workings of the Spirit of God in clear and unmistakable lines" (1SM130) through Elder A.T. Jones at the 1893 General Conference: PART 21

"Next verse: 'Having predestinated'--appointed the destiny that He wants us to reach, long before hand. The destiny that God fixes for man is worth having. 'Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.' Why did He do it then?--Not because we were so good, but because He is so good; not because we were so well pleasing to Him, but because of the good pleasure, of His own will. It was just Himself to do it. That's why He did it.

Verse 6. 'To the praise of the glory of His grace wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved.' Now what do you say to that? (Congregation: 'Amen.') When did He do that? (Congregation: 'Before the foundation of the world.') Precisely; 'Before the foundation of the world.' That answers all this idea about whether we can do anything in order to be justified or not. He did it all before we had any chance to do anything--long before we were born--long before the world was made. Don't you see that the Lord is the One that does things, in order that we may be saved and that we may have Him?

Now see what He has done: 1. 'He hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings' in Christ. 2. 'He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world.' 3. 'He hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ.' 4. And 'He hath made us accepted in the Beloved.' Well, I am glad of it. I know that that is so. (Congregation: 'Amen.') Don't you? (Congreation: 'Yes.') For He says so. He says so. Here then are four things that we can be everlastingly sure of.

A word further about those blessings the Lord hath given us. We have all the blessings that God has, when we believe Jesus Christ. Then they are our own. We don't need to be so very particular about praying for blessings. Would we not do better, think ye, to spend our time in thanking Him for the blessings that we have, than in asking Him for blessings? How does that look? Which do you think looks better, to thank the Lord for the blessings He has already given us, or to ask Him to give us some, when He hasn't any more to give? Now which is better? (Congregation: 'To thank Him.') He hath given us all the blessings He has in Christ. Christ says, 'I am with you.' Brethren, let us feed on the blessings. We have them, and they are our own. Then we can be sure all the time that we have all spiritual blessings. We can be sure all the time that He has chosen us. He says He has. We can be sure all the time that He has predestinated us unto the adoption of children. We can be sure all of the time that He has made us accepted in the beloved. We can be sure of all these things; for God says so, and it is so. Then isn't that a continual feast itself?

Now He has done all that, and has done it freely. For how many people did He do it? (Congregation: 'All.') Every soul? (Congregation: 'Yes, sir.') Gave all the blessings He has to every soul in this world; He chose every soul in the world; He chose him in Christ before the foundation of the world; predestinated him unto the adoption of children, and made him accepted in the beloved, did He not? (Congregation: 'Yes.') Of course He did.

We will read other verses presently. The thought I am after just now is that no one can have these things, and know they are his, without his own consent. The Lord will not force any of these things upon a man, even though He has given them already, will He? (Congregation: 'No.') This is a co-operation, you see; God pours out everything in one wondrous gift, but if a man will not have it, the Lord will not compel him to have a bit of it. Every man that will take it, it is all his own. There is where the co-operation comes in. The Lord has to have our co-operation in all things." A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C.Bulletin, p.400,401.
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FOUR THINGS WE CAN BE EVERLASTINGLY SURE OF! Thank God!

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited March 06, 2001).]

The continuation of "the workings of the Spirit of God in clear and unmistakable lines" (1SM130) through Elder A.T. Jones at the 1893 General Conference: PART 22

"Now let us turn to Titus 2:14, speaking of the Lord it says, 'who gave Himself for us.' That is the past tense, too, is it not? It is done. He did give Himself for how many people? (Congregation: 'All.') How many people on the earth can read that text and say 'That means me?' Every soul on the earth. Wherever we go, then, on the earth and find a man, we can read to him that 'Christ gave Himself for you,' can we not? (Congregation: 'Yes.') He gave Himself for you, then. That is the price that Peter refers to in 1 Peter 1:18-20.

Whether you or I let Him have us, that is not the question just now. What has He done? What did he do? (Congregation: 'Paid the price.') Before the foundation of the world He bought me, did he not? And you? Then whose are we? (Congregation: 'The Lord's.')

Well, then, is there any prospect of your getting into doubt as to whether you are the Lord's? How is a man who wants to be the Lord's, and has confessed his sins--how is it possible for him to get into doubt as to whether he is the Lord's or not? It is only by going back on the word of God altogether and not believing it at all, and saying that the Lord has lied. Is not that the only way he can do it? 'He that believeth not God hath made Him a liar.' Then the only way a man can doubt as to whether he is the Lord's or not is by going back on the word of God and saying that the Lord lies. That is the only way he can do it. Because for a man to doubt is to do that; he may not do that in so many words; but when he gets into doubt as to whether he is the Lord's, that is what he has done. He has allowed unbelief to overthrow him, and Satan to get the advantage and sweep eerything away. That is so.

But still, though the Lord has bought us, He will not take what He has bought without our permission. There is a line which God has set as fixing the freedom of every man, and He Himself will never go over that line a hair's breadth without our permission, never. He respects the freedom and dignity which He has given to intelligent creatures, whether man or angel; He respects it and He Himself will not transgress the limit; He will not go over the limits without the permission of that person. But when the permission is given, then He will come for all that He is; then that opens the flood gates and the Lord flows in. That is so.

Well, then, He has bought you, has He? (Congregation: 'Yes.') Do you want to be the Lord's? (Congregation: 'Yes.') Now, friends, let us make this a real practical, tangible thing. He has bought us, has He not? He has paid the price for us; we are His by His will. Now then, when our will is there, whose are we then? (Congregation: 'The Lord's.') He has shown His will on that subject by paying the price, has He not? And when we make known our will on the subject by saying, 'Lord, that is my choice, too; that is the way my will goes, too; then I want to know how in the universe anything is going to keep us from being His? Then can you KNOW you are the Lord's? (Congregation: 'Yes, sir.') Can you, now? (Congregation: 'Yes, sir.')" A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C.Bulletin, p.401,402.
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FAITH IS COUNTED UNTO US FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
THE MAN WHO KNOWS THAT HE BELIEVES GOD HAS THE BLESSING OF ABRAHAM AND THAT MAN MAY ASK IN PERFECT CONFIDENCE FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT.

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited March 06, 2001).]

Dear AB,

Thank you for answering my questions. And I'm very sorry your first post got lost in hyper space. It is never fun when that happens. I'm sure all of us can testify to that.

I must admit that although I agree with J&W's basic conclusions - righteousness is by faith - I find reading the transcripts of their lectures more than tedious. I prefer reading the same thoughts in books like Steps to Christ. Also, I find their argumentative style less than ingratiating. I prefer the smooth rolling style of Ellen White.

Also, in spite of what the church did in the 1950's I still believe the official doctrine of the SDA church on righteousness by faith and the sanctuary (and the other pillars) is clearly and accurately documented in our publications. There are individual SDA authors whose ideas contradict the truth, but their ideas do not represent the official church position.

Thank you for clarifing your thoughts on corporate repentance. I'm sorry I missed it before. Yes, when enough of God's people understand and experience righteousness by faith and are also actively seeking and saving the lost then things can begin to happen on a prophetic level.

Yes, I respect your views on Dan 11. And I definitely agree with your thoughts on how apostate Christian forces are infiltrating the hearts and minds of many, many SDA church members. It's sad to think about. But praise God for the straight testimony of the True Witness which will one day, the sooner the better in my opinion, shake and purify the church.

What do you think about the idea that Ellen wrote about saying that the latter rain will follow the shaking? And that the shaking begins sometime after God starts numbering and sealing the 144,000 during the sunday sabbath crisis?

If this chronology is correct - sunday crisis, judgment of the living, numbering and sealing of the saints, shaking, latter rain, loud cry, close of probation - if this line up is right then what are we expecting to happen next?

According to my study of Ellen and the Bible we should be expecting the politicians and pastors to respond to upcoming economy crippling natural disasters by establishing and enforcing sunday legislation. Which is the signal for the balance of things listed above to start unfolding in rapid quick succession.

Thus, I'm not expecting anything to happen with any of the events listed above until after natural disasters threaten the economy of the USA. In the meantime, I will do my best to cooperate with heavenly agencies to experience the truth in my own life while sharing, according to my God-given gifts, the gospel of grace with people I come in contact with.

Mike

Mike, try: First the latter rain message has to be proclaimed in the SDA church; then the shaking among us: the bearers of the message will be forced to leave the churches because the ministers and the leading men will not telerate the light; then the loud cry which will coincide with the national sunday law; when the mission of the gospel is completed, then the judgment of the living, at the close of probation, will accomplish the work of separation between the wise and the foolish, the wheat and the tares, which will determine who will be among the 144,000 or those who are to live without an intercessor during the time of Jacob's trouble.

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited March 03, 2001).]

At the Loma Linda train station EGW related to Robinson (her grandson in law), an SDA woman MD & SDA Church elder.

In my own words, circumstances bring a national & world crisis. The SDA position seekers & political climbers vanish & the loyal SDA's do their best to hide. After a while God causes a calm eye in the storm for a while and allows the sheep to come out of hiding. They cry to God because they have no leaders. He pours out His Spirit to reorganize & strengthen them, then as they are reorganized and readied He pours the Latter Rain and they go out and warn the world.

That is my condensation. It did not condemn being a leader, but it did not spare leaders who climbed at the expense of the flock. Who knew their Master's will and performed their own.

What I noticed as signifigent was that as soon as the winds of strife hit, there was no vacation & no rest till the Second Coming. The things that seperated the wheat & tares was their internal responce to the crisis & God's protection or not. Position in leadership was not a factor in being a sheep or goat, it was completely internal rediness that made sheep and the lack that made goats.

I think this was called "A terrible Storm is coming" Vance Farell published it in his track packs.

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Edward F Sutton