If I could just briefly summarize here, what I'm understanding is that "The tribulation spoken of the verses in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 refer to the long years of the Dark Ages when the papacy ruled Europe." This is followed by the signs spoken of in Matthew 24 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the
moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the
heavens shall be shaken."

What I'm not understanding is that Jesus himself, speaking of this time, said that there would not be a time of trouble like it again. All the reading of GC and EGW doesn't change that fact. Yet we insist that there is a time of trouble comming which will be far worse.

IF that is the case, then we are in error to associate the events mentioned with the end of the time of trouble. These events must be still future, or the time of trouble is over; one or the other.

Not necessarily.
There are instances where the partial fulfilment of a prophecy has been greater filled at a later date.

I can't remember where i read that, but the speaker used such prophecies as the return of Isreal from captivity.
There was a partial fulfilment at the end of the Babylonian (or wasa it Medio-Persian)captivity.

It was more cpompletely filled after the Grecian rule.

I wish I was half the scholar some of these on here are, I remember things, just can't remember where they came from.

When you notice that jesus lumped three tribulations together and left it to the disciples to study it out, then you become more free to look at the big picture and then look at the qualifing details to properly seperate the events.

We know that Jerusalem was encompassed by pagan armies and the second army that returned after the first army had retreated.

That was the siginal for the Christians to flee when the first army stood within the temple precincts that extended outside the city walls. The retreat gave them the oportunity to flee. All the Jewish forces had followed the retreating army to attack. All the Christians got away.

Then the time ques of time specific prophecy that Daniel designates for the "time of the end" and the fulfilling of the symbolic prophecied time given that once decoded becomes historically fulfilled literal time.

The Second tribulation that had to have the persecution cut short or no Christians would have survived. The 1260 yrs from 538AD - 1798 AD as far as the time span goes. Then the signs did occur.

However - Michael (Christ) did not stand up - I repeat did not stand up then. When Michael stands up human probation has closed. The final tribulation mentioned then is the one that in this specific is like the days of Noah. Human probation closed when God closed the door of the Ark Noah built. Human probation closes forever when Michael stands up. The time of trouble that builds up to this is when SDA's live in the country & grow their food or starve. When it moves to the close of probation, all living SDA's are called to move out & leave it all, like Lot & family from the cities of the plains.

So my studies have shown that the situation covers three tribulations. The last one is the biggest one, but when the Seven Last Plagues begin, all the SDA's that are still SDA's are sealed whether dead or alive and under God's direct care .

Working on a new Sabbath School set of lessons "Prophecy made practical" so will be very tied up till it's done, but then I may post or e-mail it. It will be a workbook built to cover one quarter at least.

It's scope makes me feel very insufficent.

Dry Prophecy dates & proof texts are one thing, but how Jesus and Bible characters lived it is much more.

Hey if faithful, present day SDA's will to the universe be Bible characters. They will be chronicled in the total Bible- the one with the seven seals.

MR No. 667 - Prophetic Interpretation

The Book With Seven Seals Contains the History of the World.-- "And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon" (Revelation 5:1-3). {9MR 7.1}

There in His open hand lay the book, the roll of the history of God's providences, the prophetic history of nations and the church. Herein was contained the divine utterances, His authority, His commandments, His laws, the whole symbolic counsel of the Eternal, and the history of all ruling powers in the nations. In symbolic language was contained in that roll the influence of every nation, tongue, and people from the beginning of earth's history to its close. {9MR 7.2}

This roll was written within and without. John says: [Revelation 5:4, 5, 8-14; 6:8-11; 8:1-4; quoted.] {9MR 7.3}

The same spirit is seen today that is represented in Revelation 6:6-8. History is to be repeated. That which has been will be again.--Letter 65, 1898, pp. 6-9, 12. (To Brethren Griggs and Howe, August 23, 1898.) {9MR 7.4}

Prophecies of Revelation Repeat Prophecies of Daniel.-- Revelation is a sealed book, but it is also an opened book. It records marvelous events that are to take place in the last days of this earth's history. The teachings of this book are definite, not mystical and unintelligible. In it the same line of prophecy is taken up as in Daniel. Some prophecies God has repeated, thus showing that importance must be given to them. The Lord does not repeat things that are of no great consequence.--Manuscript 107, 1897, pp. 1,2. ("Search the Scriptures," no date.)

White Estate Washington, D. C. November 14, 1978 {9MR 7.5}
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MR No. 984 - The Matchless Christ Offers His Spirit to the Humble and Contrite

We ask of Paul, the great apostle, and he answers, "Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" [1 Tim. 3:16]. {12MR 296.1}

Again we ask John, What of Christ? [John 1:9-14, 29, quoted]. We hear the testimony of Isaiah: [Isa. 62:1-3; 63:1-4, quoted]. We ask John what he saw and heard in the vision at Patmos, and he answers: [Rev. 5:1-3, quoted]. {12MR 296.2}

There in His open hand lay the book, the roll of the history of God's providences, the prophetic history of nations and the church. Herein was contained the divine utterances, His authority, His commandments, His laws, the whole symbolic counsel of the Eternal, and the history of all ruling powers in the nations. In symbolic language was contained in that roll the influence of every nation, tongue, and people from the beginning of earth's history to its close. {12MR 296.3}

This roll was written within and without. John says: "I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon" [verse 4]. The vision as presented to John made its impression upon his mind. The destiny of every nation was contained in that book. John was distressed at the utter inability of any human being or angelic ntelligence to read the words, or even to look thereon. His soul was wrought up to such a point of agony and suspense that one of the strong angels had compassion on him, and laying his hand on him assuringly, said, "Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof" [verse 5]. {12MR 296.4}

John continues: [verses 6, 7, quoted]. As the book was unrolled, all who looked upon it were filled with awe. There were no blanks in the book. There was space for no more writing. [Rev. 5:8-14; 6:8-11; 8:1-4, quoted.] {12MR 297.1}
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Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited March 28, 2001).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gerry Buck:
Not necessarily.
There are instances where the partial fulfilment of a prophecy has been greater filled at a later date.

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From this I conclude that we should look for an even more terrible time of trouble, and a greater manifestation of the signs given. In other words, these signs will be repeated, but on a global scale, visible throughout the world.

Remember that God speaks to man in language that he can understand (sorry for my non-pc language, but I'm in a hurry).

The goal of the "signs" I first mentioned seemed to be to "rouse them from their stupor."

Even though we may have worse disasters, the way they are interpreted is as important as the event itself.

The famous "Boston Massacre" in the American Revolutionary War killed only a couple of people, yet the effect was universal.

I wonder if end-time horrors are going to be like that? Will we be blind enough to miss these apocolyptic international catastrophies because we're so jaded by seeing them weekly on CNN even today?

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Be glad for all God is planning for you. Be patient in trouble, and always be prayerful. Rom. 12:12 NLT

In re-reading the posts above two other points struck me.

1. Matthew 24: 21 says that if those days were not cut short, no flesh would survive. Although the papacy controlled Europe with an iron fist, it had virtually NO influence outside it. Islam, Buddhism, the Maya, Aztecs, and hundreds of other people groups and thought patterns existed.

2. To say that a prophecy is fulfilled over and over again is intellectually lazy and does injustice to the word of God. "Heck, if it aint fulfilled this time, it'll come around agin." Why did God give the prophecy if it doesn't apply to any particular time, just keeps comming back again and again?

To say that IF the papacy had continued to exist it WOULD HAVE resulted in the death of humankind would be sheer speculation. The continued existence of humanity was not in question when the days (if this prophecy does point to the 1260 days/years of papal power) were "cut short".

Perhaps it would be better to consider the unleashed power of the life and character of Jesus the all powerful Christ. We sin doth abound grace doth more abundantly abound. Rember the exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think. Guess what - He is the source.

It is because His protection was upon the masses for centuries, so there was no tribulations. He concentrates His protective & evangalistic power through the faithful in that last generation.

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Edward F Sutton

I can't say that I disagree with anything you've just said, Ed, but I can't see how that addresses the concerns raised.

On the one hand we're saying that the time of trouble which Jesus is speaking of ended in 1798, which end was signaled by the aforementioned signs, and on the other hand we're saying that we have a time of trouble in our future the likes of which we can not imagine, despite the fact that Jesus said there will never be another time like it.

To me it is a clear contradiction. We need to seriously re-think this end-time scenario.

This is taken from the book Desire of Ages, pg 632:

quote:

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At the close of the great papal persecution, Christ declared, the sun should be darkened, and the moon should not give her light. Next, the stars should fall from heaven. And He says, "Learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: so likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that He is near, even at the doors." Matt. 24:32, 33, margin. {DA 632.1}
Christ has given signs of His coming. He declares that we may know when He is near, even at the doors. He says of those who see these signs, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." These signs have appeared. Now we know of a surety that the Lord's coming is at hand. "Heaven and earth shall pass away," He says, "but My words shall not pass away." {DA 632.2}

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Read Desire of Ages, chapter 69 for the entire context of these quotes.

From what I have just read, EGW did say that the subject under discussion was fulfilled.

There is more, and when I find it, I will post it here.

[This message has been edited by Gerry Buck (edited March 29, 2001).]