The tribulation spoken of the verses in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 refer to the long years of the Dark Ages when the papacy ruled Europe.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Immediately after quoting these verses Ellen White writes these words:

At the close of the great papal persecution, Christ declared, the sun should be darkened, and the moon should not give her light. Next, the stars should fall from heaven. And He says, "Learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: so likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that He is near, even at the doors." Matt. 24:32, 33, margin. {DA 632.1}

Christ has given signs of His coming. He declares that we may know when He is near, even at the doors. He says of those who see these signs, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." These signs have appeared. Now we know of a surety that the Lord's coming is at hand. "Heaven and earth shall pass away," He says, "but My words shall not pass away." {DA 632.2}

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For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.
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Linda

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Linda Sutton:
[B]The tribulation spoken of the verses in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 refer to the long years of the Dark Ages when the papacy ruled Europe.

If this is true, then we are wrong to anticipate another tribultion, since Christ said there would never be another like it.

He also said there would be wars and rumors of wars {had that all through history}, famines and pestilences {again},also said that it would all happen before this generation would pass.
Did it?
They were all long dead before most of it happened.
Personally, I believe that a prophecy can have more than one application, it can have a partial fulfilment at one time, and then, a larger fulfilment at another date.

There are certainly types and antitypes all through scripture.
Who's to say that the events described weren't to be the total fulfilment, but, we as a people weren't ready, so He had to postpone, again.

We were given a wakeup call, now it's about time for the alarm to sound again, for the last time?

Better to worry about being ready, not if it really is time or no.

Intresting call for deeper study.

Often when people had only one solution in mind, Jesus would go far beyond their expectations.

Could it be, that there are two Times of trouble spoken of in the Bible.

One time when for 1260 years an estimated 50-150 million saints were slain. A time so involved that unless cut short, no Bible belivers would be left.

Then later as Daniel Chapter 12 unfolds at last, Michael stands up & puts on His robes dipped in the blood of His enemies.

A future time, shorter in duration, unmatched in intensity & ferocity and polorization from Heaven, Hell, and humans - in all Earth's history; and jerked short by the Seven Last Plagues & The most intense Warriors of all ..... The God Head Themselves & all the Holy Angels at the Second Coming.

My daughter says I gotta go sleep now, she's taking us out to dinner at a nice place in Columbus this afternoon, so bye for now.

A great topic to dig on, go for it.

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Edward F Sutton

quote:

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Originally posted by Edward F Sutton:
Intresting call for deeper study.

Could it be, that there are two Times of trouble spoken of in the Bible.

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This would directly contradict the words of Jesus, where he says there will never be another time like it. If the time of trouble is the Dark Ages, as interpreted by Linda, we should be looking forward to clear sailing from here on in.

I learned in school that "the time of the end" and "the end of time" are two different things.

I see the whole Christian era (from the cross to the second coming) as part of Jesus' prophecy.

In Revelation, the Seals and the Trumpets show the deterioration of the world and the church progressively (good word for it?) throughout the Christian era.

In Revelation 10 we finally get to "our day" when the Angel (Christ) says "there shall be no more delay (Chronos--meaning "clock-time")."

I think Peter sums it up best when he likens Earthquakes, etc. to "birth pangs." They tend to happen around the time of a birth, no terribly dependably (all three of our kinds had a different end-time scenerio) but they are an assurance that a birth will happen.

By the way, there was a small quake today near Scotland--of all places!

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Be glad for all God is planning for you. Be patient in trouble, and always be prayerful. Rom. 12:12 NLT

Have you ever wondered curious about something? Durk stirred my Biblical curiosity, and Andrew offered a different answer that I am accustomed to, as far as Revelation ch 10 reference to time .

I will respond with a brief version of why I believe as I do.

Revelation chapter 10 speaks of time no longer. In the word search the Greek definition used in the list of definitions translated into English, includes delay. The one offered answer only alluded to delay & not time based on fixed dates in prophecy.

However the context of chapter 10 & 11, and the messages and prophecies they point to, point to specific time limited prophecy that will under the edict of chapter 10 finally reach it's appointed time and never will there be prophecy given with a specific time limit again.

The context and the overall relation to the topic of a subject spoken of in the Bible has as much weight upon the understanding as the various word definitions and sometimes more.

The mystery of God that is finished under the voice of the Seventh Angel - occurs in the same time frame as the time of the dead that they should be judged. After a great tribulation that has to be cut short so that faith based on all the Bible's truth can be reborn and survive on Earth, and that mankind would not destroy that faith which would cause it's eminent destruction.

This tribulation was the prophecied time based 42 months or 1260 days = 1260 literal years. It's official time ended in 1798. In 508 AD began the setting up of the abomination & the removing of the daily, 1290 prophetic days or 1290 literal years later in 1798 AD that time was ended and the last phase before the mystery was finished or completed now comes to view. From the same date of 508 AD moving forward the 1335 prophetic days or literal years you come to 1843 AD when the actual occurrences about to commence that finishing or completing of the mystery by the judging of the dead according to Heaven's books, sealing them Posthumously using the records of their dedication to Jesus, their lives, Jesus mediations in their behalf. Now actually beginning the closing processes of redemption for the human race.

The context convinces me that it was not chronological time that had completed, but time limited date specified prophecy. It seems evident that God wished chronological time also, to be short between then and the Second Coming. The falling of the stars, dark day, and great Earth Quake happened just as foretold.

However in Biblical history too often is shown that God is not given the regard by the people He is leading, that they should follow His preferred plan, thus they are required to submit to the circumstances of His mandated required, absolute limits.

The 40 years wandering in the desert was done to remove the whole generation of traitors, Caleb & Joshua the only two faithful men were given extended grace and went in. The trip was not intended to take so long, but a limit was placed and one generation went in & one died never going in.

70 yrs was apportioned in exile because of nationwide church wide sins. It didn't have to be until they passed the bounds, then it was mandated and irresistible circumstances compelled .

Shortly after 1840's in 1853 -1857 a revival / reformation happened that was poised to become the launching pad to igniting irreversibly the final events. Nearly that whole generation was lulled to spiritual sleep, then in 1888 time similar situation occurred and another lulling to spiritual sleep. Then in 1901 - 1903 similar opportunities, but each time had it's distinct differences and focuses. But each time the lulling to spiritual sleep, and the opportunities for God's plans that were involving a simpler less difficult set of final events was set aside.

I am convinced that since these times of trouble spoken of by the prophets and Jesus, were in mercy not immediately fully unfolded in their explanations. The manifestations happened in the past and I personally expect they may repeat again but that is only my opinion about their repeating. They did occur in American recorded history and we have caused a huge delay.

In mercy God has allowed us to exist and has allowed delay, but we are warned that God has appointed a day when He will judge the world. Then He will tolerate no more delay.

The time of the official ending of the 1260 year tribulation, was not a ceasing of human probation. Michael had not stood up and ended the court proceedings. The book of Ezekiel shows that the closing of human probation(judgement) in the latter days begins first in the house of God starting with the leaders and works it's way down. Jeremiah ch 30 has convinced me that this Church gets separated into sealed & lost. The structure of it's operations gets sifted and God re-unites it on His terms alone. These people God uses to call the world under His special outpouring and during this time circumstances swell into the time of trouble just before all human probation closes, when Jesus prepares to stand up and close Heaven's court proceedings in behalf of humanity.

Until Michael stands up the various times of trouble are not the final one that culminates in the end of human probation (grace offered to us to save us from our sins), and the Seven Last Plagues & the Second Coming. Remember how Jesus lumped the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the world together because the disciples could not endure having it all spelled out fully then. Possibly we have to little study of the history of the various times of tribulation in the Bible, as well as prophecy regarding tribulations and the "big one" the time of Jacobs trouble that moves on into the Seven Last plagues without abating, but rather intensifying.

Perhaps these truths have been so taken for granted over generations that little personal study to understand and confirm them has been done .

Thank you Durk for stirring my curiosity about these things, it has spurred me into study of them, comparing texts, passages, topics, and what is revealed. Thank you.

I forgot to spell check, so had to edit.

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited March 17, 2001).]

Give glory to God. It is the Spirit that stirs.

Durk, have you carefully read the chapter in The Great Controversy dealing with the 1260 day prophecy? This time period was a time of trouble for the people of God who were persecuted by an apostate church using the arm of secular power to enforce her dogmas. If this time of tribulation had not been shortened, none of the people of God could have been spared. But this time of trouble is nothing compared to what is going to take place beginning a short time prior to the close of probation and especially following the close of probation. It will be a time of tribulation like there never has been before that time. This time is described as the great time of trouble for the wicked and the time of Jacob's trouble for the people of God followed by they second coming of Christ.

The second coming of Christ should have taken place shortly after 1844 but because of unbelief on the part of God's professed people the work of proclaiming the last message to the world was not completed and the second coming was delayed. As brother Ed pointed out, there were other opportunities to finish the work but God did not have the co-operation of His people. He is still waiting for us to co-opereate with Him by accepting the only message that can finish the work and that is the third angel's message as given by His messengers in 1888 and especially in 1893. See 1 SM130,143; T.M.91-97.

One of the arguments that futurists use when it comes to interpreting Revelation is that none of the Seals or Trumpets can describe what has already happened in history.

The earth has not been visited with such horrors yet, they say.

I hope we don't fall into this trap in our view of end-time events.

Historicists (such as Adventists) spiritualize much of the graphic descriptions (but we don't spiritualize it away).

I've always thought that the spiritual issues in the "time of trouble" are far worse than the physical horrors that we can collect as "evidence."

I really get pained at the general secular mailase and "death" that exists in the great nations of the world.

If we carefully look a what's happening around us now, there is ample evidence that we are living in (or are very close to) the time where "there will be no more delay."

I'm a firm believer in the "year for a day principle," but you don't even need to believe in that prophetic principle to accept Revelation's historical time-line.

Notice, the Angel in Rev. 10 says "You must prophecy again." This means that these spiritually stirring messages must be shared with others--that's the #1 evidence of the "times" in which we now live.

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Be glad for all God is planning for you. Be patient in trouble, and always be prayerful. Rom. 12:12 NLT