Pickle, thank you for sharing those thoughts. You have a nice way of stating your beliefs. And it seems fairly clear that you are unwilling to allow for a future final fulfillment of the trumpets. How about the earthquake, falling stars and dark day? Do they represent a dual application of sorts?

Great subject, great questions, and great responses! I see that I'm late in entering this conversation, and I'm not sure any contribution from me would be of any help at this time (especially in light of all the excellent comments people have already given), but I would like to add some thoughts anyway.

First, in regard to the moderator's opening comments about the Lisbon quake. He said it was hardly the worst quake in the last couple of centuries. Hardly the worst in some ways (such as number of lives lost, or magnitude on the Richter scale) perhaps, but it WAS the worst in one way--the size of geographic area it was felt in. On this basis it "is the most notable earthquake of history." (Nelson's New Loose-Leaf Encyclopedia, vol. IV, article: "Earthquakes," p. 205). Concerning this fact one writer said, "The effects of the earthquake of the first of November, 1755, were distributed over very nearly four millions of square English miles of the earth's surface; a most astonishing space! and greatly surpassing anything of this kind ever recorded in history." (J. Nourse, The History and Philosophy of Earthquakes, London (1757), p. 334). Another commented, "Half the world felt the convulsion. . . ." (James Parton, Life of Voltaire, vol. II, 2 vol. ed., NY: Houghton, Miffin Co., 1909, pp. 208-209). There have been no quakes before or since which have covered such a large geographic area.

Next, in regard to the Dark Day, it is true it was only seen by people of a limited geographic area, but the same can be said concerning the birth of Jesus. Yet, just because few knew of His birth, does that mean He was not the true Messiah? Of course not. The question is, did the event fulfill the prophecy; not how many people recognized it. Incidentally, history records that "The true cause of this remarkable phenomenon is not known." (Noah Webster's Dictionary, 1869 edition).

And what about the falling of the stars: were they just "a garden-variety meteor shower"? I met a pastor and an Adventist astronomer years ago who both made this claim, but they were both wrong.

It is true that a Leonid shower (with which these were associated) can be expected to fall about every thirty-three years, but this does not make the famous star shower of 1833 only a common "garden-variety" event. Jesus predicted a specific star shower. It had to happen at the right time in history, in the right sequence of events, and be of such an unusual nature that in some way it would stand out and be recognized as the fulfillment of the prophecy. The falling stars of 1833 undoubtedly did this as no shower before or since. "The number at some stations was estimated as high as 200,000 an hour for five or six hours." (Manual of Astronomy, Charles A. Young, Ph.D, LL.D, Professor of Astronomy at Princeton University, pp. 469, Boston: Ginn and Company, 1902). There have indeed been other meteor showers. In 1864 an astronomer predicted a shower for 1866, and stars did fall on that date and were seen in Europe. And a shower of stars also fell in 1867 which was visible in America. "Neither of these showers, however, was equal to the shower of 1833." (Ibid., p. 471). No shower of falling stars has ever compared to the event 1833.

The signs that Seventh-day Adventists have historically pointed to as fulfilling the predictions of Jesus do not at all pale into insignificance in comparison to later events, for they were fulfillments of our Saviour's predictions. When I became a Seventh-day Adventist 33 years ago these events may have seemed like "old news" to some members of the church, but they were new news to me. I thrilled to see that Bible prophecy had been so accurately filfilled. And the thirty-three years that have passed since the day of my baptism have not lessened the significance of those signs. The news is not much older now than it was then, and it is no less important today. The only difference now is that people today seem to hunger for excitement. They are not satisfied with facts of history. For them, "old news" is boring news. Many today seem interested only if we offer something new and exciting, something that involves them right here and now. The Bible describes this generation as those who "will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears ticked." (2 Tim. 4:3, NASB). Today's generation desires what is new, novel, and exciting. But the old news is still as true today as it ever was, and Seventh-day Adventists need not be ashamed to tell it. The old, old story of Jesus who died on Calvary is now somewhere around 2,000 year old news, but no matter how old truth becomes, we should never grow weary of telling it, nor be ashamed of its age. As the birth and death of Jesus fulfilled prophecy, so the Lisbon quake, Dark Day, and falling stars of 1833 likewise fulfilled prophecy. It is not the response people give that makes the truth valid; no matter how they respond or how much time has passed, the truth is still the truth.

[This message has been edited by Dennis Crabbe (edited June 25, 2001).]

Durk, I appreciated your excellent question about the time of trouble which you asked earlier, and would like to respond to it if I may.

When told that the tribulation of Matthew 24 refers to the Dark Ages, you correctly noted that Jesus said there would never be a time of trouble like it again. But you said that if this is true, you wondered how there could be another tribultion at the end. Along with the excellent comments others have offered, I hope the following will be of benefit:

The text in question says, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." (Matt. 24:21). Notice carefully what Jesus did not say: He did not say there would never be another tribulation, but rather that there would never be another like that one. In fact, the idea of there not being any more tribulation goes directly against the teachings of Jesus, Luke, and John who all said that everyone who is faithful will go through tribulation (John 16:33; Acts 14:22; Rev. 7 :14).

What Jesus said was that the tribulation of the Dark Ages would be unlike any other before or after it. So the question is, in what way was it different? What aspect of the Dark Ages makes it different from any tribulation before or after it? Rather than speculate, let's look for a Bible answer.

In what way does the Bible make this tribulation time stand out? What aspect of it does Scripture point to and identify that shows it to be unlike any other? Does the Bible mention the number of martyrs slain? No. Many indeed were killed, but only history gives us an idea of the number; the Scriptures are silent on this point. Was the unique thing the fact that a church was doing the persecuting? No; even the Jews killed God's prophets that came to them (Matt. 23:37). The unique thing about the Dark Ages which the Bible identified it by was its incredibly long duration: 1260 years. God's Word identifies it in this way six times (Dan. 7:25; Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14; 13:5). If you want a Bible answer for how that tribulation was unlike any other, this is the Bible answer I have found.

Scripture clearly shows there will be more tribulation. In Rev. 13:11-17 we read of a power that will renew persecution very soon. This final tribulation will in no way compare to the other in duration; but we should not underestimate its seriousness. The Lord has foretold these things out of love so we might have confidence in the truths of the past, and have faith in the truths about the future. Trust fully in His Word. Jesus is coming soon.

[This message has been edited by Dennis Crabbe (edited June 25, 2001).]

Dennis, I'd like to thank you for your clear, uncluttered bible scolarship. I remember hearing similar step-by-step studies in the past, and these were the things that convinced me that Adventists are people of the book. It is rare to find bible studies which progress naturally, and allow the bible to explain itself. Too often we get caught up with theories, and we miss the point totally. I read all of this topic tonight, and was feeling confused about the points being discussed, and feeling troubled by the lack of straight bible counsel. Your posts were like a refreshing draught of cold water on a hot day. Thank you.
Zyph.

First, I am not saying that there will be no more tribulation. A straightforward reading of the words of Jesus leads to that logical conclusion if we continue with the current interpretation and time frame.

Second, I think we should be careful about how we interpret "the faithful will be persecuted" concept. Many fine Christians have lived in the last 100 years and not experienced persecution. (HMS, Billy Graham, Doug Batchelor, Venden...) This idea just doesn't wash with reality. (And let's not get off on a tangent here in defining persecution and the judgemental thing, unless you'd like to start another thread on it.)

Third, to say that "Jesus meant that there will never be another like that one" is setting up a straw man and then destroying it. You propose your own arguments against your position and then disprove them, which makes your argument look real good. However, your basic premise is faulty.

I am not familiar with this particular interpretation of Jesus' words, (ie. that Jesus meant it was different from others because of its length.) Nor is this current (or past, for that matter) SDA teaching on the subject. No commentary on this text (Matt. 24:21) that I am aware of, or could find, interprets it in this way. This includes the SDA Bible Commentary and EGW comments.

The bottom line is that I have to reject this interpretation.

Sorry.

[This message has been edited by Durk (edited June 25, 2001).]

One of my original questions on this thread was how to get people past the "ho-hum" response to the signs of the 18th and 19th Centuries.

I find Dennis' answer to be quite good. I don't doubt the universal effect of those events in Bible prophecy. I'm just wondering how a world of people who think everything before the Victorian Age is prehistoric and the biggest news of the day is a sale at Zeller's are going to be impressed by the signs.

Two major means of communication we have in our day are movies and the books that they're based on. When have we seen a good disaster flick about the Lisbon earthquake or the Dark Day?

How do we get into people's conciousness that there's more to World History than the Viet Nam war and the Holocaust?

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You have done many good things for me, Lord, just as you promised. I believe in your commands; now teach me good judgment and knowledge. Psalm 119:65-66 NLT

Isn't it the job of the Holy Spirit to convict of truth? We just do OUR part of the work.

Or point to the rest of Matthew 24 and 25 for perspective on the signs.

It seems that Jesus was more concerned about the way we live (how we treat our brothers and sisters) in the end-time than making up charts.

We know that the "leaves are about to burst out" and summer is almost here.

Still, there is a pattern to Christ's work in history. Many scholars find a paralell between Matthew 24 and the 7 seals of Revelation--The Gospel, War, Famine/Pestilence and Death...

God used them repeatedly and constantly in the Old Testament to bring His people to a sorrow that leads to repentance.

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You have done many good things for me, Lord, just as you promised. I believe in your commands; now teach me good judgment and knowledge. Psalm 119:65-66 NLT

Durk,
You say the Seventh-day Adventist position regarding Matthew 24:21 constitutes a contradiction, and claim it cannot refer to the Dark Ages. You said that if it did, “we should be looking forward to clear sailing from here on in.” You claim our church’s “chronology is off,” and you told Brother Sutton there could not possibly be “two times of trouble spoken of in the Bible,” insisting, “This would directly contradict the words of Jesus.” How so? I respect your right to believe as you wish, but wonder, “Why should Adventists “re-think this end-time scenario” and believe your theory over the sound Biblical evidence of our pioneer’s position?

Brother and Sister Sutton both shared what Sister White said on the matter, but you said you wanted Bible evidence. That was fine; we can respect that kind of request. But when Bible evidence was presented, you turned toward “the SDA Bible Commentary and EGW comments,” to dispute what was shared with you--not that these really disagree with what was said (Since you provided no quotes, it was not clear why these sources were even resorted to). You rejected what Sister White said and insisted on Bible evidence, and then turned to Sister White to reject Bible evidence. Respectfully I would like to tell you, this makes it very difficult and confusing for people to help you find answers to your questions.

You seem to suggest that “Ellen White and her people” (as you call them) were careless in their handling of Scripture and erred by failing to notice “the part that said if the days were not cut short all life would perish.” Contrary to your claim, the writings of the Advent pioneers attest to the fact that they did see those words, and they trusted God’s word for what the outcome would have been if the persecution of that time had been permitted to continue. The history of the fierce persecutions of the Dark Ages (together with the aggressive so-called “missionary efforts” of that power to plant itself on every continent), likewise attest to the truth of God’s word on this point. It is disappointing to see your lack of confidence in Sister White and other Adventist pioneers. But when you respond to the Adventist handling of Matt. 24:21 by saying, “our chronology is off, and there is no need to embarass ourselves by creating elaborate explanations to try to shore it up,” this sounds as if you are suggesting that Ellen White and our pioneers were dishonest in how they handled Scripture. If you truly believe that Sister White and other great leaders of this movement were either dishonest or so grossly erring in their handling of God’s word, I cannot help but ask out of curiosity, “Why did you choose to become a Seventh-day Adventist, and for what reasons have you remained one?” A lack of confidence in the beliefs of those who established a denomination does not make for a good foundation or reason for belonging to it. I am of the belief that one should study the Bible diligently for himself, and join the church whose teachings agree with Scripture.

As I think about this point I realize I have been assuming you were an Adventist only because this is an Adventist web site. I apologize for this, remembering now that non-Adventists visit here also. Whoever you are (Catholic, Pentecostal, or whatever), I sincerely hope this discussion will be as much a blessing for you as it is for the rest of us.

Another concern is that you seem to express doubts about the Bible teaching that all of Christ's followers go through tribulation (John 16:33). No individual can rightly claim that another has not experienced this; no one has such intimate knowledge of another's life to claim their experiences did not qualify as "persecution" or "tribulation," or even "great tribulation." What may not seem a trial to you may be a real ordeal for someone else. If your life has seemed like "smooth sailing," I don't know how to respond to that. All I know is that the Bible says, Not some, but "ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" and go "through much tribulation" (2 Tim. 3:12; Acts 14:22). If we are willing to accept what the Bible says, and not try to invent our own definitions, the truth will be made plain.

Durk, I am not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that my handling of Scripture involves "setting up a straw man and then destroying it." It is easy, no doubt, to make such an accusation, but would you be so kind as to please present your Biblical evidence to convince us of your claim? The hermeneutics (or rules of study) I apply to Matt. 24:21 are the same as early Adventist pioneers applied to this text: namely, bring all related texts together on the subject, let Scripture interpret Scripture, examine the context, and let every word have its proper bearing. There are other hermeneutics also, but these are the primary ones necessary for understanding the passage in question. These and other principles of study used by early Adventists (along with the truths these methods lead to) are Bible-based and solid. I accepted the Adventist faith for this very reason—because I tested their beliefs by the Scriptures and found them to be true. Out of Christian courtesy, therefore, I ask you not to condemn the way I handle Scripture (nor condemn my Adventist belief that these methods lead to) until you can offer me something better and more reliable in its place.

You claim that my "basic premise is faulty." If I am in error, please show me my error with Scripture as a good brother should, and out of Christian concern I will try to do the same. I have shared comments on this site with no other desire than to be helpful. And for this same reason I ask you to please look at Matthew 24:21 once more, but more carefully this time. If Jesus meant there would be no more tribulation after the tribulation of Matthew 24 (because He said, “no, nor ever shall be”), then we would also have to believe there had never been tribulation before it either, because it says, “such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time.” Just a simple look at the word “tribulation” or “persecution” in any concordance, however, will plainly show that many have gone through tribulation in Old Testament time as well as New Testament time. Israel faced it (1 Sam. 10:18-19), David experienced it (1 Sam. 26:24), Paul went through it (1 Thes. 3:4), and John and all the other disciples did too (Rev. 1:9; John 16:33). And so also did the Christians of Hebrews 11:35-38.

Your entire theory about the time of the tribulation seems to be based, as far as I can tell, on only two verses (Matt. 24:21 and Mark 13:19) and the unique interpretation you apply to them, without taking into consideration the many other passages in Scripture concerning this issue. Applying the principle of bringing all related texts together on the subject would greatly help to correct many misunderstandings. Luke tells us that at the time of Stephen’s stoning “there was a great persecution against the church which is at Jerusalem” (Acts 8:1). Are you going to tell us that this “great persecution” was not a “great tribulation”? Before you make such a claim, it might be well to notice that the Greek word for “tribulation” in Matt. 24 is also translated as “affliction,” “anquish,” “persecution,” and “trouble” in other verses of the KJV. Other versions translate “tribulation” in Matt. 24:21 as “great sorrow” (BBE), “great affliction” (LIT), “great suffering” (Weymouth). Are you prepared to claim that there was never great affliction, anguish, persecution, trouble, sorrow, or suffering before that of Matthew 24:21? Surely not.

The Bible teaches that Christians should edify (or build up) one another’s faith; not tear it down (Rom. 14:19; 1 Cor. 14:26; Eph. 4:29; 1 Tim. 1:4). And Seventh-day Adventists, above all others, should be restoring and rebuilding the confidence of their brethren in the early truths of God’s people and encourage them to walk in “the old paths” (Isaiah 58:12; Jer. 6:16). It is good to see my brethren at this web site trying so hard to encourage you this way Durk. The Lord is truly wonderful. Every time I re-examine the evidence for the Adventist beliefs my faith grows stronger, and I rejoice that God has so wonderfully led His church. I hope this is the experience of all of us. Thank you Brother Marttinen for this excellent discussion topic.

[This message has been edited by Dennis Crabbe (edited June 27, 2001).]

Hi Ya'll

Durk & Dennis and everyone.

Michael is the chief officer of Heavens court that represents the peoples of Earth.

When He stands up, His function that was being carried on has ceased. He is presently standing as Advocate & intercessor & High Priest & investigating Judge .

His next role is Judge & King of Kings. His changing functions forever alter events upon Earth. Since Adam's & Eve's first sin Michael has stood as the vicarious sin bearer & because of His authority & merits a relative peace has been enforced upon Earth to allow human probation to progress.

During this probation all other times of persecution & tribulation have been a blend of God's mercy and Satan's cruelty. Restraints have been put on Satan.

When Michael leaves the office of mediation, the "junk-yard dog" (Satan) gets his collar loosened enough to be unrestrained for a while as the seven last plagues begin.

Physical evidence shows that is yet future, otherwise no one could be sorry at all ever again for doing wrong. No one but the living sealed could have an active conscience.

The persecutions of the 1260 years is in the past. The physical signs fortold happened upon scedule but did not move into the close of human grace at that time.

The scenes of 538AD - 1798 AD are one set of events, the visible historical events - another set of events, Michael standing up & all hell breaking loose is another set of events. However they were all described in Scripture seemingly in a lump. Therein is the problem and the answer.

The description of the events is a encrypted puzzel for the Bible students to study out it's facets. Similiar to the time & detail encrypted prophecies of Daniel 2, 7-8, 9.

They are confusing on the surface deliberatly. But underneath their real meaning becomes clear when either going forward or reverse engineering, they are attached to the Bible contexts & events they match up with.

(Will anyone scream too loud if I wait & systematically answer more later ?????) Gotta move on & lurk the whole forum then hit the hay.

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Edward F Sutton