1. What does Paul mean when he says in verse 17 and 20 "it is no more I that do it"? What does the "do it" refer to if it doesn't mean the sinful clamorings of our fallen flesh nature?

2. In verse 15 what is it that Paul "allow[s] not" and do[es] not"? If it doesn't mean that he does not allow himself to fulfill the unholy desires of his fallen flesh nature while he's walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man - then what does it mean?

3. Can we conclude from this passage that Paul is saying born again believers can excuse falling back into the camp of sin by blaming it on the "sin that dwelleth in me" (verses 17 and 20)?

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Lowe:

3. Can we conclude from this passage that Paul is saying born again believers can excuse falling back into the camp of sin by blaming it on the "sin that dwelleth in me" (verses 17 and 20)?

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Mike,

Its a little hard for me to be sure of what you are meaning in your statements but it seems as if you are saying we arent really to blame if we have unholy thoughts running around in our heads

Its not a sin to be tempted but it is to cherish it and allow it to stay there. You can see this by reading the EGW statements below. We are to blame for that. But maybe I just am misunderstanding you though.
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God's Amazing Grace, page 295, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Keeping the Heart
Diligent heart-keeping is essential to a healthy growth in grace. The heart in its natural state is a habitation for unholy thoughts and sinful passions. When brought into subjection to Christ, it must be cleansed by the Spirit from all defilement. This cannot be done without the consent of the individual.
When the soul has been cleansed, it is the duty of the Christian to keep it undefiled. Many seem to think that the religion of Christ does not call for the abandonment of daily sins, the breaking loose from habits which have held the soul in bondage. They renounce some things condemned by the conscience, but they fail to represent Christ in the daily life. They do not bring Christlikeness into the home. They do not show a thoughtful care in their choice of words. Too often, fretful, impatient words are spoken, words which stir the worst passions of the human heart. Such ones need the abiding presence of Christ in the soul. Only in His strength can they keep guard over the words and actions. .

Lift Him Up, page 130, paragraph 9
Chapter Title: Lift Him Up as the Bread of Life
The heart that is stored with the precious truths of God's Word is fortified against the temptations of Satan, against impure thoughts and unholy actions ( Youth's Instructor , July 28, 1892).

Messages to Young People, page 382, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Unholy Influences at Work
I entreat the students in our schools to be sober-minded. The frivolity of the young is not pleasing to God. Their sports and games open the door to a flood of temptations. They are in possession of God's heavenly endowment in their intellectual faculties, and they should not allow their thoughts to be cheap and low. A character formed in accordance with the precepts of God's word will reveal steadfast principles, pure, noble aspirations. The Holy Spirit co-operates with the powers of the human mind, and high and holy impulses are the sure result. . . .

Claudia,

Thank you for those awesome quotes on being pure and holy in the Lord. Amen! I too agree that we cannot cherish unholy thoughts and feelings. Otherwise, we become guilty of them.

But would you agree that initially the unholy thoughts and feelings that enter our mind originate with our sinful flesh nature? And that we must resist them unto the honor and glory of God by the power of the indwelling Spirit?

Do you have any thoughts on the 3 questions I posed two posts back in this thread on the man of Romans 7?

1. What does Paul mean when he says in verse 17 and 20 "it is no more I that do it"? What does the "do it" refer to if it doesn't mean the sinful clamorings of our fallen flesh nature?

2. In verse 15 what is it that Paul "allow[s] not" and do[es] not"? If it doesn't mean that he does not allow himself to fulfill the unholy desires of his fallen flesh nature while he's walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man - then what does it mean?

3. Can we conclude from this passage that Paul is saying born again believers can excuse falling back into the camp of sin by blaming it on the "sin that dwelleth in me" (verses 17 and 20)?

Searching Romans Chapter seven & comparing with SOP - part 1

I found a Scripture index in the SOP search engine.

7:1 - 3 AH 340-1, 344-5
7:6 1SM 213
7:7 6BC 1096; 1SM 229, 241; 2T 512-3
7:7 - 9 6BC 1076
7:7 - 12 DA 608; 1SM 212-3, 347; 3T 432, 475
7:9 SC 29, 30; 2T 554
7:10 6BC 1094; 7BC 915; PP 522; 1SM 237
7:11 2T 554
7:12 AH 310; 5BC 1099; 6BC 1076; 7BC 986; CG 261, 506; COL 391; DA 309; Ev 372; EW 66; FE 238; GC 467, 469; PK 15, 625; PP 123, 365; SC 19; SD 40-1, 361; SL 67; 1SM 211, 216, 219, 232, 302, 324, 363, 371, 373; 2SM 50; 2T 513; Te 42
7:12 , 13 1SM 213
7:13 GC 507; GW 31; 5T 246
7:14 SC 19
7:14 - 23 MH 452-3
7:15 2SG 259
7:15 - 19 MYP 74; 1T 160
7:16 SC 19
7:18 AA 561; COL 161; 2SM 32; Te 113
7:18 - 25 AH 127
7:24 COL 201; GC 461; 6T 53
7:24 marg. DA 203; MH 84; SC 19
7:25 4SG-a 146; 1T 150

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Edward F Sutton

Edward, thank you for those references. Did you find them helpful? I looked them up some time ago and discovered they didn't address the questions I've been asking in this thread. Is that your experience too?

After reading Rom 7:14-25 in the context of Rom 5-8, and also in the context of what the rest of Bible says about conversion, the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh nature, living without sin, and the joy of walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man (maturing in the fruit of the Spirit) - it seems obvious to me that the man of Rom 7 is a born again Christian who is successfully resisting the sinful clamorings of his fallen flesh nature.

Is that how you see it? Or is that how you believe the Bible sees it?

By the way, would anyone care to comment on the three questions I listed above?

Verse 7:25 "I myself" = ego autos
Ego Autos = (ego) I (autos)alone without anyone or anything else, by my self.
Verse 25 was the contrast & the bridge to move into Romans 8.

Paul was talking about his life as Saul of Tarsus, a religious Jew before Jesus Christ, while he was on his "high horse". Jesus knocked him off his "high horse and blinded his eye, but enlightened his mind & heart.

After conversion to Jesus, Saul the religious failure was now Paul the enabled disciple; with the Saviour Who can & does.

The choices the earlier questions offered afforded no Biblical picture of conversion at all. They stacked the deck un Biblically.

The man of Romans 7 is a religious man but without Jesus Christ. Paul expresses those "without law" to be the various pagan peoples. The people "under law" are the Jews who say they follow God, but exclude Jesus Christ; the peoples "under grace" are both groups from Jews & gentiles having accepted Jesus Christ as their Saviour. Compare 1st Corinthians 9:20,21; Romans 6:15; Galatians 4:4,5 & 5:18.

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Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited September 25, 2001).]

Edward, can I conclude from your last post that the man of Romans 7 is an unconverted person striving to obey the law of God in his own unaided strength? If so, then can you please comment on the "inward man" (verse 22) and the "body" of this death (verse 24)?

And what do you think about this paraphrased translation of verse 25:

"So then with the mind of the new man I myself serve the law of God. But with the flesh I serve the law of sin."

His choices are to serve the law of God "with the mind" or the law of sin "with the flesh." Paul seems to be making a contrast, rather than a comparision. He uses the word "but", instead of the word "and." Do you see what I mean?

And can you please explain what you meant by the following:

"The choices the earlier questions offered afforded no Biblical picture of conversion at all. They stacked the deck un Biblically."

Here are those questions restated:

1. What does Paul mean when he says in verse 17 and 20 "it is no more I that do it"? What does the "do it" refer to?

2. In verse 15 what is it that Paul does not "allow" and does not "do"?

3. What and where is the "sin that dwelleth in me" (verses 17 and 20)?

Paul has three groups to speak of.

1. Religious Jews
2. Non relegious or pagan religious Gentiles
3. Converted Christians

Relegious Jews & Converted Christians both will call the law holy just & good.

So the pagan gentiles are not in Romans 7 group.

The non Christian Jew is zealous to obeythe law, but upon searching - finds he can not do it, because he requires ego autos. Jesus Christ is excluded. However Jesus says "without ME YE can do NOTHING." Keeping God's law is definitly one of those things.

Romans 7 is Paul's deliberate and detailed contrast between the internal landscape of a religious Jew and a religious Christian, useing himself from his own past experience without Christ & present experience with Christ as the contrast.

I recommend reading "The Word was made Flesh" by Larson, Appendix D.

A very Biblical analysis.

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Edward F Sutton

Edward, I really like what you just said about the 3 groups of people. So true. Would you do me a favor? Would you please answer the following questions in light of the contrast between Paul before and after his conversion?
1. In verse 15 what is it that Paul does not "allow" and does not "do"?

2. What does Paul mean when he says in verse 17 and 20 "it is no more I that do it"? What does the "do it" refer to?

3. What and where is the "sin that dwelleth in me" (verses 17 and 20)?

P.S. I don't have my copy of Larsen's book. It's packed away where I can't get at it right now. But I will read it as soon as I get the chance. Thanx.