What is the truth about the man of Romans Seven? Is he:

1) a converted Christian who is incapable of living without sin?

2) a converted Christian who is successfully resisting the unholy clamorings of his fallen flesh nature?

3) an unconverted Christian who is incapable of living without sin?

4) an unconverted, non-Christian person who is incapable of living without sin?

5) other:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
What is the truth about the man of Romans Seven? Is he:

1) a converted Christian who is incapable of living without sin?
Why do you use the word incapable?

2) a converted Christian who is successfully resisting the unholy clamorings of his fallen flesh nature?
Why do you use the word successfully?

3) an unconverted Christian who is incapable of living without sin?
This is an oxymoron.

4) an unconverted, non-Christian person who is incapable of living without sin?
By contextual evidence this is nonsense!

5) other:
Maybe you need to read 27 Fundamental Beliefs on the subject. It gives a clear explanation of this in the section on the nature of man. A detailed explanation is also found in the SDA Bible Commentaries on Romans 7.

---

Mogens

[This message has been edited by Mogens H. Sorensen (edited August 28, 2001).]

Mogens, thank you for replying. But are you going to keep us in suspense? What is your interpretation of Romans 7?

I believe that the context of Romans 6-8 makes it clear that Paul believes the man of Romans 7 describes a born again believer who is empowered through the indweling Spirit of God to recognize and resist the sinful clamorings of fallen flesh nature.

Apparently Paul employs the word "I" to mean either the mind of the new man or the mind, as it were, of fallen flesh nature. See verse 18 and 25. The context determines which is which.

For example - "For that which I do [the flesh clamoring for sin] I allow not [the new man does not allow himself to crave sin]: for what I would [the flesh would sin if it were possible], that do I not [the new man does not sin]; but what I hate [the new man hates sin], that do I [the flesh loves to clamor for sin]" verse 15.

The "do it" in verse 17 and 20 (KJV) cannot be referring to the actual commission of a known sin. Because Paul would then be excusing sin, which clearly is not possible. Rather I believe the "do it" is talking about the unholy thoughts and feelings communicated to our minds, via our sinful flesh nature. The flesh is guilty of craving sin, not the new man.

Paul is, as I see it, saying that we should not blame ourselves for the existence of unholy thoughts and feelings. These things originate with our fallen flesh and are only temptations which must be resisted through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Does this not ring right to you? If not, then what does Paul mean when he says in verse 17 and 20 "it is no more I that do it"? What does the "do it" refer to if it doesn't mean the sinful clamorings of our fallen flesh nature? And in verse 15 what is it that Paul "allow[s] not" and do[es] not"?

My interpretation of Romans 7 is the one given on page 556, Vol. 6, SDA Bible Commentary.

"Paul is describing the continuing struggle with self and sin, even after conversion..."

In the Blessed Hope,
Mogens

[This message has been edited by Mogens H. Sorensen (edited August 30, 2001).]

Mike,

Looking @ Romans chapter 7, it seems in obvious context to include Romans chapters 5 & 6 & 8; since Paul uses these Chapters in context on the topic. Then having a posted set of KJV texts for all to read, plug each text into SOP & see what we get. If the number of hits are too many we can say so & post references. How does that sound?

Romans chapter 5:
1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 ¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:
1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans chapter 7:
1 ¶ Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:

1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 ¶ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 ¶ Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

------------------
Edward F Sutton

Mogens,

Your words to Mike Lowe have a ring of harshness to them. This public forum is not the place for contentions nor for personal attacks on another person. If you have a personal problem with Mike (as this and some other posts indicate), we have private forums where you may go and work at settling your differences. I ask you kindly to please reread the forum rules which forbid personal attacks on other forum members.

------------------
Jesus is the joy of living
_________________________

Linda

[This message has been edited by Linda Sutton (edited August 29, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Linda Sutton (edited August 30, 2001).]

I'm sorry and I appologize if what I have posted sounds harsh. If my words are harsh I appologize for the harsh words.

Mogens

[This message has been edited by Mogens H. Sorensen (edited August 30, 2001).]

I've been away on business until now. Sorry for the delay.

Mogens, I too believe that Romans 7 is describing a born again believer resisting the clamorings of sinful flesh nature after conversion. Resisting these clamorings is what I call fighting the good fight of faith. Does this agree with your understanding?

In fact, I also believe that only converted Christians experience this warfare with sin, self and Satan, because all others basically go laong with the sinful desires of fallen flesh nature. Thus, they never really do go through what Paul shares in Romans 7.

Edward, I like your idea of researching this question in the broader context of Romans 5-8. And I also welcome any EGW quotes you might find on the subject.

Would anybody care to comment on my last post? I raised several points which I would like to hear what someone else thinks about them. Any takers?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
What is the truth about the man of Romans Seven? Is he:

1) a converted Christian who is incapable of living without sin?Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.... don't think so

2) a converted Christian who is successfully resisting the unholy clamorings of his fallen flesh nature? sounds more like it, but with a great deal of struggle and leaning on Jesus

3) an unconverted Christian who is incapable of living without sin? if unconverted would he really care? Would he even know?

4) an unconverted, non-Christian person who is incapable of living without sin? if he recognizes no duty to God, would he? He may lead an exemplary lifestyle, but still not be without sin, only God can take it away and keep us from falling: Jude 1:24 Now unto [b]him that is able to keep you from falling , and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

5) other:[/B]

---

My $0.02

------------------
Examine me, O LORD, and prove me: try my reins and my heart. Ps.26:2
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in men.Ps.118:8

I believe that the context of Romans 6-8 makes it clear that Paul believes the man of Romans 7 describes a born again believer who is empowered through the indweling Spirit of God to recognize and resist the sinful clamorings of fallen flesh nature.

We are all familiar with the sinful voice of our fallen flesh nature. It never ceases to communicate unholy thoughts and feelings, which we must disown and resist as we would the voice of Satan.

Apparently Paul employs the word "I" to mean either the mind of the new man or the mind, as it were, of fallen flesh nature. See verse 18 and 25. The context determines which is which.

For example - "For that which I do [the flesh clamoring for sin] I allow not [the new man does not allow himself to crave sin]: for what I would [the flesh would sin if it were possible], that do I not [the new man does not sin]; but what I hate [the new man hates sin], that do I [the flesh loves to clamor for sin]" verse 15.

Does this explanation sound bogus to you? If so, please explain why, and also share what you think makes sense according to your understanding of truth. Is someone willing to take the time to respond to this request?

The "do it" in verse 17 and 20 (KJV) cannot be referring to the actual commission of a known sin. Because Paul would then be excusing sin, which clearly is not possible. Rather I believe the "do it" is talking about the unholy thoughts and feelings communicated to our minds, via our sinful flesh nature. The flesh is guilty of craving sin, not the new man.

Paul is, as I see it, saying that we should not blame ourselves for the existence of unholy thoughts and feelings. These things originate with our fallen flesh and are only temptations which must be resisted through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

1. What does Paul mean when he says in verse 17 and 20 "it is no more I that do it"? What does the "do it" refer to if it doesn't mean the sinful clamorings of our fallen flesh nature?

2. In verse 15 what is it that Paul "allow[s] not" and do[es] not"? If it doesn't mean that he does not allow himself to fulfill the unholy desires of his fallen flesh nature while he's walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man - then what does it mean?

3. Can we conclude from this passage that Paul is saying born again believers can excuse falling back into the camp of sin by blaming it on the "sin that dwelleth in me" (verses 17 and 20)?