But back to the topic, how do you interpet Rom 7:17 and 20?

Romans
7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

By these words is Paul telling us that we can blame our sinful "behaviour" on our indwelling sin? Does that make any sense? Can we excuse sin by blaming sin on sin?

Don't you think it's obvious that Paul is not referring to the actual commission of sin? I believe it is clear Paul is talking about the sinful clamorings of our fallen flesh nature, rather than actually someone committing sin itself. Else our only other option is to conclude that Paul is telling us to blame sin on sin. Do you see any other way out?

That Paul is contrasting the desires of our sinful flesh nature and the desires of our new man mind is clear from the following passages:

Romans 7:17-25 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing... For I delight in the law of God after the inward [new] man... But I see another law in my members [or flesh], warring against the law of my mind... So then with the mind [of the new man] I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

I believe Paul is clearly describing the internal warfare between nature and nuture which every human being experiences every day. He is contrasting the desires of sinful nature versus the sinless desires of the new man. The "do it" in verses 17 and 20 is not talking about committing sin, but instead it's refering to our fallen flesh nature clamoring for sinful expression. And since the flesh cannot actually commit a sin, the "do it" can only be referring to our fallen nature's natural desire for sin.

In conclusion, Paul writes - "I delight in the law of God [and] with the mind [of the new man] I myself serve the law of God [but my sinful] flesh [wars against] the law of my mind... for I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing... evil is present with me... Who shall deliver me... Jesus Christ... Now then it is no more I [the new man] that do it [desire sin], but sin that dwelleth in me."

What do you the rest of you think?

But "Nothing is apparently more helpless, yet really more invincible, than the soul that feels its nothingness and relies wholly on the merits of the Savior. God would send every angel in Heaven to the aid of such a one, rather than allow him to be overcome." Sons and Daughter of God, p.35.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
What about church discipline? Why would anyone want to attend church if they are practicing a known sin without intending to repent or to try and change his ways? Especially if the church was following proper protocol as outlined in Mat 18 and other places in the Bible and church manual?

But back to the topic, how do you interpet Rom 7:17 and 20?

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Mike

I think your question here is a good one; and could be related closely to the topic at hand.

Why would someone want to go to church when the are practicing a known sin? As a people, we always say things like "If you experience the pleadings of the Holy Spirit in some area of your life, then you know you have not committed the unpardonable sin."

I have had a time or two when I went to church while practicing a known sin; but the church members "loved me anyway," and it was the love of Christ through others which kept me coming...and eventually, when I was sorry enough for what I was doing; I quit what I was doing overnight!

Rom.7:14-25 is simply a conflict of two natures. Being converted, or unconverted, is not the contextual focus of this passage; although Paul's conversion status is clearly revealed here:

AA.190.001
Before his conversion Paul had regarded himself as blameless "touching the righteousness which is in the law." Philippians 3:6. But since his change of heart he had gained a clear conception of the mission of the Saviour as the Redeemer of the entire race, Gentile as well as Jew, and had learned the difference between a living faith and a dead formalism. In the light of the gospel the ancient rites and ceremonies committed to Israel had gained a new and deeper significance.

That which they shadowed forth had come to pass, and those who were living under the gospel dispensation had been freed from their observance. God's unchangeable law of Ten Commandments, however, Paul still kept in spirit as well as in letter. "

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Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"--as far as outward acts were concerned --he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt.

He says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem was gone."

I think that by these quotes it is easy to see that Paul was converted...but then, maybe we need to define what being converted is?

Here is another quote I think reflects Paul's controversy between two natures; yet it also attests to the fact that Paul was converted:

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"It was a hard struggle for Paul--heretofore able to say of himself, as far as outward acts were concerned, as "touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless"--to see himself a transgressor, all his supposed goodness swept away. It was a hard struggle for him to give up his supposed righteousness, and cast himself for salvation on the One he had despised. But he yielded to the convictions of the Spirit. The far-reaching claims of the law of God took hold of his life, reaching to the thoughts and emotions of his sin-corrupted heart.

With eyes anointed by the grace of God, he saw the mistakes of his life. From a proud Pharisee, who thought himself justified by his good works, he was changed to a humble suppliant for mercy. The tongue, once so ready to blaspheme the name of Christ, became eloquent in sounding the praises of him who had called him out of darkness into his marvelous light."

[ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

Here is a direct commentary on this chapter from the book Steps to Christ:

"It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law; to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, 'I consent unto the law that it is good.' 'The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.' But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, 'I am carnal, sold under sin.' Rom.7:16,12,14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himsefl he was powerless to attain, and cried out, 'O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?' Rom.7:24. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but one answer, 'Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.'" p.19.

Here is another testimony of the Spirit of God from The Desire of ages:

"There are many who realize their helplessness, and who long for that spiritual life which will bring them into harmony with God; they are vainly striving to obtain it. In despair they cry, 'O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death?' Rom.7:24. Let these desponding, struggling ones look up. The Savior is bending over the purchase of His blood, saying with inexpressible tenderness and pity, 'Wilt thou be made whole?' He bids you arise in health and peace. Do not wait to feel that you are made whole. Believe His word, and it will be fulfilled." D.A.203.

"In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." 2 Cor.13:1.

Let us bring forth our third witness:

"Wherever the word of God has been faithfully preached, results have followed that attested its divine origin. The Spirit of God accompanied the message of His servants, and the word was with power. Sinners felt their consciences quickened. The 'light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world,' illumined the secret chambers of their souls, and the hidden things of darkness were made manifest. Deep conviction took hold upon their minds and hearts. They were convinced of sin and of righteousness and of judgment to come. They had a sense of the righteousness of Jehovah and felt the terror of appearing, in their guilt and uncleanness, before the Searcher of hearts. In anguish they cried out: 'Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?' As the cross of Calvary, with its infinite sacrifice for the sins of men, was revealed, they saw that nothing but the merits of Christ could suffice to atone for their transgressions; this alone could reconcile man to God. With faith and humility they accepted the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world." The Great Controversy, p.461.

After having heard these worthy witnesses, how could anyone continue to question the fact that the experience described in Rom.7 is that of the man who is longing for that spiritual life which will bring him into harmony with God, that which he is striving in vain to obtain?

Let us read in Romans and see what is done. Rom.3:10, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one." And the 12th verse: "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Is that so? Yes. Then how can we talk about a heathen doing good? Does he do good? "There is none that doeth good, no, not one." Someone will say, "If a man has Christ, he can do good." Buf if he has Christ, he is not a heathen. What we are talking about is the heathen.

We need not go to the heathen to inquire; all we need is to go to the Jews. Here is one that was a Jew, like you and me. Rom.7:14, "For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin." The carnal mind is the natural mind. Whose mind is the natural mind? Satan's, that is the mind of self; that is the mind of Satan. Well, let us read further. "For that which I do, I allow not." verse 15. What is the reason I do not allow what I do? What is the matter with it? Why can't I allow it? Because I know it is wrong. It is not good. If it were good, could I not allow it? "That which I do, I allow not." What is actually done then? The good? No, the not good. The bad. The wrong.

"For what I would, that I do not." What would he do? The good. But what did he do? The wrong. "But what I hate, that I do." What did he hate? Sin. He hated the evil, the wrong, the bad. But what did he do? The evil. He did the evil, he did the wrong, he did the bad. Then how much good does the natural mind do? None. Although he hates the bad, how much good does he do? None. He would do the good; but how much of the good that he would does he actually do? None. Now is that so? Yes. It is so; for the Bible says so. Then what in the world is the use of anybody's talking about the heathen doing good, or even a Jew doing good, or any man doing good, who has only the natural mind, and is only the natural man? This is not saying anything as to what he knows; that is not saying whether he has impulses to good or not; that is not the question. He had these impulses all the time, didn't he? He had the knowledge of good, so much that he hated the bad things that he was doing.

Now think of that. There was the natural man; there was a man like you and I and every man born into this world. He had impulses to good; he had the knowledge of good; he hated the evil; but what did he do? Not what did he think? Not what did he know? But what did he do? He did the evil. It is not a question of what he knew. Did he do anything else than evil? No. He knew something else, he knew better, didn't he? Yes. Then let us not pass off our right knowing, for right doing. Let us not pass off our right knowledge for right deeds. Knowledge of right is not doing right. So he did not do any good. Who is that? It is you and I--the natural man. Is that I? Yes. Without the mind of Christ itself, it that I? Yes. Then though I profess to believe in Christ, if the mind of Christ itself is not there, is that I? Yes. Is it you? Yes.

7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Is Paul blame shifting? Is he saying that when he sins it's really not him sinning but his flesh? What is the "do" he's talking about? does it refer to him actually committing sin? or does it refer to his fallen flesh clamoring for sin?

Good questions.

Let me begin to answer, by asking another question:

When Paul says, "It is no longer I; but sin," what does he mean?

Is Paul saying there is a difference between "I" and "sin?"

What might this difference be, if there is a difference?

Would it be possible that, if there is a difference, that the difference was related to Gal.5:16?

I don't see this as "blame-shifting." How would you answer my questions here?