If you're insinuating Paul is referring to his sinful flesh nature, rather than his sinless new man mind, then I think we're on the same page. Note the following passages on the flesh:

Rom 7:5,18,25 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death... For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not... I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:1-13
8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].

1 Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

2 Cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Galatians 5:16-24
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech [you] as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

AH 127, 128 "The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness."

NOTE: I believe that these passages teach us that our sinful flesh nature has a carnal mind of its own, a mind which communicates sinful lusts and desires to either our old or new man mind, but is not capable of actually committing sin. Our flesh or carnal mind can communicate sin, but it cannot committ sin.

The difference between the "lusts" or "desires" of the flesh and the "works" of the flesh is the difference between our carnal flesh mind communicating sin, which is only a temptation, and we ourselves actually consenting to own and/or act out the sinful desires of our flesh and actually committing sin.

There is a war going on between the carnal mind of our sinful flesh nature and the sinless new man mind we received when we're born again. "The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought." SC 43. We may keep our sinful flesh desires under "subjection" but we cannot escape them this side of eternity. Not until Jesus rewards us with sinless flesh when He returns will we have sinless flesh desires.

I believe Paul is describing the greatest battle that was ever fought in Romans 7:14-25. In Romans 8:3 he goes on to share how even Jesus suffered being tempted by the voice of His sinful flesh nature. Compare Heb 2:18 and 1 Peter 4:1,2. But Jesus successfully subjected His carnal flesh mind (the lower powers of appetite and passion) to His sanctified "new man" mind and never once own or acted out the unholy desires of His sinful flesh nature.

And so it may be with us if we will be subjection to the Father just as Jesus was. Check out these powerful quotes:

DA 101.2 "All who would perfect holiness in the fear of God must learn the lessons of temperance and self-control. The appetites and passions must be held in subjection to the higher powers of the mind. This self-discipline is essential to that mental strength and spiritual insight which will enable us to understand and to practice the sacred truths of God's word. For this reason temperance finds its place in the work of preparation for Christ's second coming."

DA 122,123 "The uncontrolled indulgence and consequent disease and degradation that existed at Christ's first advent will again exist, with intensity of evil, before His second coming. Christ declares that the condition of the world will be as in the days before the Flood, and as in Sodom and Gomorrah. Every imagination of the thoughts of the heart will be evil continually. Upon the very verge of that fearful time we are now living, and to us should come home the lesson of the Saviour's fast. Only by the inexpressible anguish which Christ endured can we estimate the evil of unrestrained indulgence. His example declares that our only hope of eternal life is through bringing the appetites and passions into subjection to the will of God.

"In our own strength it is impossible for us to deny the clamors of our fallen nature. Through this channel Satan will bring temptation upon us. Christ knew that the enemy would come to every human being, to take advantage of hereditary weakness, and by his false insinuations to ensnare all whose trust is not in God. And by passing over the ground which man must travel, our Lord has prepared the way for us to overcome. It is not His will that we should be placed at a disadvantage in the conflict with Satan. He would not have us intimidated and discouraged by the assaults of the serpent. "Be of good cheer," He says; "I have overcome the world." John 16:33.

"Let him who is struggling against the power of appetite look to the Saviour in the wilderness of temptation. See Him in His agony upon the cross, as He exclaimed, "I thirst." He has endured all that it is possible for us to bear. His victory is ours.

"Jesus rested upon the wisdom and strength of His heavenly Father. He declares, "The Lord God will help Me; therefore shall I not be confounded: . . . and I know that I shall not be ashamed. . . . Behold, the Lord God will help Me." Pointing to His own example, He says to us, "Who is among you that feareth the Lord, . . . that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God." Isa. 50:7-10.

"The prince of this world cometh," said Jesus, "and hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. There was in Him nothing that responded to Satan's sophistry. He did not consent to sin. Not even by a thought did He yield to temptation. So it may be with us. Christ's humanity was united with divinity; He was fitted for the conflict by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And He came to make us partakers of the divine nature. So long as we are united to Him by faith, sin has no more dominion over us. God reaches for the hand of faith in us to direct it to lay fast hold upon the divinity of Christ, that we may attain to perfection of character."

DA 149.4 " It was Christ who in the Old Testament gave the warning to Israel, "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Prov. 20:1. And He Himself provided no such beverage. Satan tempts men to indulgence that will becloud reason and benumb the spiritual perceptions, but Christ teaches us to bring the lower nature into subjection. His whole life was an example of self-denial. In order to break the power of appetite, He suffered in our behalf the severest test that humanity could endure."

DA 466.5 "The only condition upon which the freedom of man is possible is that of becoming one with Christ. "The truth shall make you free;" and Christ is the truth. Sin can triumph only by enfeebling the mind, and destroying the liberty of the soul. Subjection to God is restoration to one's self,--to the true glory and dignity of man. The divine law, to which we are brought into subjection, is "the law of liberty." James 2:12.

DA 664.4 "Verily, verily, I say unto you," Christ continued, "He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also." The Saviour was deeply anxious for His disciples to understand for what purpose His divinity was united to humanity. He came to the world to display the glory of God, that man might be uplifted by its restoring power. God was manifested in Him that He might be manifested in them. Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was."

[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

"If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it."

No. I said I would not do it. I said that I hated it, and declared that I would never do it again. But I did do it. Then when I hated it, and resolved and re-resolved, and determined that I would never do it again, and yet dit it, what in the world was the matter with me? I had the knowledge, but did not have the power. Now the gospel of Christ, 'which is Christ in you,' that is power; it is the power of God to every one that believeth.

Well, then the natural man is not free, is he? No, sir. He is not in a condition where he can do what he would, even with the bedimmed intellect, and the obscured mind that he has. He cannot live up to his own standard. But is what he would do as he sees it, is that as God would have him do it? No. Or as God would do it? No. Whose righteousness are we to have? God's. Yes, for God's righteousness is what we are to have. And righteousness is right doing. So that it is God's right doing that we must have. Then our undestanding is exceedingly low, even with the light which God has let shine into our hearts. Then where is the good doing of any man in this world who has not the mind of Jesus Christ?

"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing; for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

What is it that is present with us? To will to do good. Then what did that putting of emnity there against Satan--what was that the doing of? Is not it setting the man free to will? Yes. Was it anything more than that? No. Now think carefully of this; I mean on this point. Did that do any more for the man to enable him to do right things, and glorify God, did it do any more for him than to set free his will, that he might choose which master he would have? No. It put the hatred there, and gave him the knowledge of something better. It gives the hatred of evil, leads him out towards the good; but does it enable him to do the good? No.

Now just another thought there. He hates the evil and declares he never will do it; and yet against his will, and against all his being for that matter, it is done. But what is it, and who is it, that actually does it? "Sin that dwelleth in me." And who rules that? Satan. Who is the master of that man? Satan.

Now when the man is set free from that carnal mind, the mind of self and Satan, who controls that man? who then is his master? Christ. Yes. Christ sets him free.

Now carry that thought a little further. When we had the mind of self and Satan was ruling, we said we would not do those evil things, but just those were done. Who did it? "Sin that dwelleth in me." We said we will do so and so. We did not. Who kept us from it? Satan. But now in Christ we are free from him; we have the other mind. We say we will do that. Who does it? Christ. While in the natural mind we refuse, and who does it? Satan. And when in the mind of Christ, we choose and who does it? Christ. Is that so? Yes. It is God that worketh in you both to will and to do, of His good pleasure.

This shows that the man of Romans 7 is longing for something better, for something, Ellen said, he is striving in vain to obtain!

P.S. Romans 8 describes the experience of the man in possession of what the man of Romans 7 is striving in vain to obtain. The battle is the same but now sin has no dominion over him because Christ is in him the hope of glory.

The man of Romans 7 knows defeat and defeat only! The Christian should experience victory some of the time!

[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: adventbeliever ]

Is the man of Rom. 7 converted? No.

He's 1/2 converted.

As Ellen White describes Paul a little earlier in the chapter, she says that the law did not die, but the carnal mind in Paul died. This is why he had a desire in his mind to serve the law of God. He had progressed in the conversion process to the point that he wanted to do right. But wanting isn't enough.

Comparing the passage to similar wording in Galatians, "The flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, so that you cannot do the things that you would." Will power? There's no such thing. The things we would, the things we choose to do, we can't do.

But the previous verse says, "Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

So once the man of Rom. 7 learns to choose to walk in the Spirit, the battle will be won, though hard at times, and he will then do the good things that he wills to do.

I just want to say I am enjoying the study of this general topic; and will be able to post some details soon about what I am observing and figuring.

I believe the "man" of Rom.7 was indeed converted; and that there can be no middle ground, as Bob Pickle seemed to suggest, nor does this man in Rom.7 know all the defeat that adventbeliever seems to have alluded to above.

I am coming to the conclusion that there are, however,some realities in this passage of Romans 7 that not many care to confront and deal with.

The key word I have used in this post is "realities," which has nothing to with the "philosopies" of "salvation" and "conversion" that we see in this thread.

What I find particularly disappointing with this subject, is that it usually tends to leave an air of confusion. Yet, God is not the author of such, is He?

There is nothing personal intended here - so please, no one take it personal.

I am just disclosing some honest impressions of the topic at hand...

Will explain soon.

How could these statements escape our notice?

There were also A.T. Jones and E.J. Waggoner, God's delegated messengers who commented on Romans 7 as well and they both taught that the man of Romans 7 is the unregenerated man who longs to be delivered from the bondage of sin.

Let me quote Waggoner here, if you dont' mind, and see for yourself if what he says is or is not in harmony with what Ellen White said in S.C. p.19 and D.A.203 and G.C.461?

"If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good." The fact that we do not wish to do the sins that we are committing shows that we acknowledge the righteousness of the law which forbids them. But conviction is not conversion, although a very necessary step to that condition. It is not enough to wish to do right. The blessing is pronounced upon those who do His commandments, and not upon those who wish to do them, or who even try to do them. Indeed, if there were no higher position for a professed follower of the Lord than that described in these verses, he would be in a far worse condition than the careless sinner. Both are slaves, only the latter is so hardened that he finds pleasure in his slavery.

"Now if one must all his life be a slave, it is better for him to be unconscious of his bondage to be continually fretting over it. But there is something better; therefore it is a blessing that we are convicted of sin, and that our slavery is thereby made as disagreeable as possible." E.J. Waggoner, The Gospel in Paul's great Letter, p.7.123,124.

Did not the Lord speak through this man too?

[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: adventbeliever ]

"So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

"That is, of course, while in the condition described in the preceding verses. In purpose he serves the law of God, but in actual practice he serves the law of sin. As described in another place, 'The flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the one to the other; so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." Gal.5:17.

It is not a state of actual service to God, because we read in our next chapter that 'they that are in the flesh can not please God.' It is a state from which one may well pray to be delivered, so that he can serve the Lord not merely with the mind, but with his whole being. 'The very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray that your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." 1 Thess. 5:23,24.

P.S. Now that I have quoted Waggoner, I invite you to re-read my posts dated Dec.27 at 6:57 P.M. and Dec.28 at 8:33 P.M. It is A.T. Jones who is speaking. It is taken from the 1893 General Conference Bulletin when he was repeating the 1888 message with added power and glory. I was waiting to see if anyone would recognize his style of writing.

Like Waggoner, he made it powerfully clear that the experience of the man of Rom.7 is the experience of the man who is convicted of sin but not delivered yet.

[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: adventbeliever ]

"But how to perform that which is good I find not."

"All will allow that a Christian must do what is good, some of the time at least. But this experience in Romans 7:21, 'When I would do good, evil is present with me,' shows that the man having that experience does not do good at all. Yet he wants to do good. This is a service in the oldness of the letter. The man is serving the law, but is a slave. There is no freedom in the service; it is bond-service. But now, having tried with all his might to do what he wants to do, and having failed, he finds that in Christ is the perfection of the law, in Him there is life. So the law as it is in the person of Jesus Christ is the law of the Spirit of Life. So he takes the life of Christ, and gets the perfection of the law as it is in Christ, and serves Him in spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Thus he is delivered from bond-service to the law to freedom in it. There is a wonderful amount of rich truth in that,--'The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." E.G. Waggoner, Bible Studies on the Book of Romans, p.59.

From bondage (Rom.7) to freedom! Rom.8:1!

[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: adventbeliever ]

I think a little light just went on. I was trying to figure out what point you were really getting at here; and I think you are trying to say that you see Romans 7 as part of the journey in a believer's life, starting out in bondage, and ending up with freedom in Christ, (Rom.8:1).

Let me know if I am reading you right on that one.

Just an FYI that I am not necessarily saying I am personally confused about this issue; but I am expressing confusion, that seems to be portrayed, within this thread, on what it means to be converted, and to be a believer; and to be "in Christ."

I personally see Romans 7-8 as a complete unit; and not really intended by Paul, make a statement, about if he was converted or not when he did "slip." Lets face the entire BIBLE RECORD on this matter, and realize and accept; the Bible is quite clear: Proverbs 24:16 "For a JUST man falleth seven times, and riseth up again:"

Paul is describing, among other things, this concept, in Rom.7. We need to be careful to not isolate or circumscribe Romans 7 in ways that other parts of Scripture, never would do.

Carnal Man Versus New Man

Quote by Mike:

“There is a war going on between the carnal mind of our sinful flesh nature and the sinless new man mind we received when we're born again.”

Hello Mike

I agree with Daryl…you have been studying lots; and these are really helpful quotes from SOP. I am going to throw out a bit of stuff – mostly questions, geared to clarifying where you are coming from; and expanding on any other possibilities.

I think we are definitely agreed that we can’t blame sin for sin, as you said above. I just quoted the one sentence above from you for now, as it seems to best explain my next question.

It almost seems to me, as though you are saying we have two separate minds, sort of running parallel to one another; kind of like having two hard drives in your computer:
1) The “flesh mind,” and 2) the “new man mind.”

Are you saying that when we are converted, we suddenly start running with this second mind which you are calling the “new man mind?” And that “the flesh mind” then takes a back seat to “the new man?” What might this mean in the believer’s life, if this is what you are saying?

1) Is there a difference, spelled out in the Scriptures, between “the flesh” and “sin?”

2) Rom.7:18 - appears to be saying “in me” is meaning the same thing as “my flesh” Do you agree?

3) Vs.22 – Is “in my heart” the same as “in me” as mentioned in vs.18?

4) Vs.23 – is “the law of sin” the same as “the flesh” in vs.18?

5) Vs.25 – how is “the mind” different than “the flesh?”

6) Is “conscience” (1 Pet.3:16), the same thing as “the new mind?”

7) Are “hidden things of dishonesty”
(2 Cor.4:2), the same thing as “the flesh,” spoken of in Rom.7: 18?

8) In order to see clearly what the Bible tells us about “conversion,” (Ps.51:13,
Mat.18:3), we need the Biblical layout of what we are born with “in Adam,”
(1 Cor.15:22), and what we are born with “in Christ.” (Rom.8:2).

9) What are some possible reasons that the Bible has one specific reference to the phrase
“in Adam;” and seventy seven specific references to the phrase “in Christ?”

I haven't answered one question yet; but this should keep us going for a short while?

Let us console ourselves with the fact that Jesus often answered questions, by asking them. He did it 308 times, within the four gospels! (I counted).

[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]