How do we explain Paul referring to himself as the "chief of sinners"???

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Why didn't it say, I was chief?

Doesn't that say that he still considers himself a sinner, even a chief of sinners?

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

[ February 02, 2002: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

If we use the word "sinner" to identify people who have sinned in the past or who possess a sinful flesh nature - then I can go along with it. But if the word means people who commit sin on a daily basis - then I can't agree that Paul is the chief of sinners.

Either way, I think it's an insult to the plan of salvation to insist that we are sinners even after we have experienced the miracle of rebirth. In the New Earth will we refer to ourselves as "sinners"? I hope not. If the kingdom of heaven begins now in the hearts of born again believers, then why should we continue to focus on our sinful past or sinful flesh nature? I like what Paul wrote:

Galatians
2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

2 Corinthians
5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

These passages do not say that born again Christians are sinners. To insist that we are still sinners after the grace of God has set us free from sin confuses the truth about victory over sin.

Also, to insist that 1 John 1:8 means that born again believers are continually guilty of always committing sin and are therefore sinners is to miss the main point John is trying to make. There are two liars he refers to.

1 John
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The first liar is the person who says he has never sinned (past tense). And the second liar is the person who says he's a Christian and yet continues to commit sin (present tense).

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Rom 3:23. This is a truth none can contradict. But the other truth is just as truthful. That is, in Christ we cease from sin. 1 Peter 4:1,2. Yes, we have a history of sin, but in Christ we are free from sin. And not just in the legal sense. The blood of Jesus saves us from the penalty and the power of sin, so that when in christ we live a life without sin.

From my point of view, the converted person who is living without the burden of committing sin is not a sinner, and it would be just as confusing to call him a sinner as it would be to say Jesus was a sinner simply because He possessed sinful flesh. Rom 8:3.

Whatever meaning Paul attached to it, one thing is for certain, which is that he called himself in the present tense the "chief of sinners." In other words, he referred to himself as "a sinner."

Okay, but what is your point? Are you suggesting that since Paul is the chief of sinners, which places him on the list above Judas, that Paul is living a life of sin?

Definitely not, however, Paul, an obviously born again Christian still referred to himself as a sinner which means all born again Christians are also still sinners. Right?

...it is not enough that the sinner believe in Christ for the pardon of sin; he must, by faith and obedience, abide in Him. "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." Hebrews 10:26, 27. {PP 517.3}

Perfection Not Reached by One Bound-- 1891.--We are looking beyond time; we are looking to eternity. We are trying to live in such a way that Christ can say, "Well done, good and faithful servant." Let us live, every one of us, in that way. We may make mistakes; we may err; but God will not leave us in error. "If we sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." There is hope for us; we are prisoners of hope. {3SM 192.3}
What If We Sin After We Have Been Forgiven?--1892. --It is the Holy Spirit that imparts repentance to us. Jesus draws us to Himself through the agency of His divine Spirit; and through faith in His blood we are cleansed from sin: "for the blood of Jesus
197
Christ his Son, cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7). "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (verse 9). {3SM 196.4}
But suppose that we sin after we have been forgiven, after we have become the children of God, then need we despair?--No: for John writes: "My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (chap. 2:1). Jesus is in the heavenly courts, pleading with the Father in our behalf. He presents our prayers, mingling with them the precious incense of His own merit, that our prayers may be acceptable to the Father. He puts the fragrance into our prayers, and the Father hears us because we ask for the very things which we need, and we become to others a savor of life unto life. {3SM 197.1}
If We Sin, He Pleads Our Case in Heaven

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 John 2:1. {SD 22.1}
The Lord Jehovah did not deem the plan of salvation complete while invested only with His own love. By His appointment He has placed at His altar an Advocate clothed with our nature. As our Intercessor, Christ's office work is to introduce us to God as His sons and daughters. {SD 22.2}

This one I especially liked, it speaks to the heart of those that 'put the hand to the plow', and somewhere along the way failed in some way:
Why, my dear brother, Jesus lives to make intercession for you.... If we sin, "we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous" (1 John 2:1). The pitying love of God is extended to us in all our wants and in all our imperfections. Jesus loves you, and do respond to that love by cheerfully trusting in Him. Put away from you all sins which would grieve and wound the Saviour. Seek to imitate His holy life and spotless character. . . . But ample provisions have been made by the dear Saviour to purify, to cleanse from all sins, and by His grace to remedy the defects in our character by imputing unto us His righteousness. {UL 328.5}
But we must exercise faith ourselves. We "must believe that he is, and he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him (Heb. 11:6). . . . Believe, my brother, believe. My soul says, Believe. Take right hold of the promises of God by faith and appropriate them to yourself. . . . In much love to you and yours, Your sister in Christ, Ellen G. White.--Letter 36, Nov. 10, 1875, to a disheartened layman. {UL 328.6}
Are we sinners? Yes, [Romans3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; ]
are we saints? Yes, [Ps.16:3 to the saints that are in the earth,Acts 9:32 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all [quarters], he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda. Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints:] there are several more that came up from the search.
I can't explain how we can be saints and sinners at the same time, any more than I can explain how Jesus was wholey man and wholey God all at the same time.

But the scriptures say so, so, I must believe it.
Remember, it says if ye sin, not when.
Paul admitted he did what he did not want to do, just as we do.
We are to make no provision to sin, but if we do, God has made provision for forgiveness;1 John 2:1.

My $0.02

May I ask you some questions: was Judas a "saint" before Lord's Supper? But after that? Whom we can call a "saint"???

Judas was never a saint, he had never submitted to God and was never converted.

"October 5, 1897 Judas.
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By Mrs. E. G. White.
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"The history of Judas presents before us the sad ending of the life of a man who might have been honored of God. By co-operating with Christ, not mechanically, but with heart and soul, Judas might have obtained victory after victory. He was trusted by his fellow disciples, and by his Master he was given a special work to do for the church. He understood the Scriptures, and at times seemed to have large discernment to take in the meaning of the word of God. He could present the words of the Old-Testament Scriptures in an acceptable manner. He had keen perceptive powers, a retentive memory, and was able to communicate the word to others. Had he been a doer of the word, he would have had grace and power from Christ to apply that word to his own soul. Possessing appropriating faith, he would, under the influence of light, have appreciated the presence of the Spirit, would have consecrated his heart, and would have received the seal of oneness with Christ. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 1}

But Judas stopped short of this. He had not received Christ as his personal Saviour. He did not think that his character needed the transforming grace of Christ. In many respects he acted as Christ's disciple. He manifested an interest in his work, and in a certain sense believed on him. But Christ read beneath the surface. He saw the true inwardness of the heart. He knew that Judas was not converted. He was not a true son of God. He had not lost something he once possessed. He had never experienced the soul cleansing, the change of character, that constitutes conversion. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 2}

Judas had valuable qualities, but there were some traits in his character that would have to be cut away before he could be saved. He must be born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible. His great hereditary and cultivated tendency to evil was covetousness. And by practise this became a habit which he carried into all his trading. His economical habits developed a parsimonious spirit, and became a fatal snare. Gain was his measurement of a correct religious experience, and all true righteousness became subordinate to this. Christlike principles of uprightness and justice had no room in his life practises. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 3}

When Judas first united with the twelve, he manifested a spirit subordinate to his Master. He loved the great Teacher. He had listened to the parables illustrating the gospel of the kingdom of God, and he desired to be with the man whose teaching he knew to be superior to anything he had ever heard, although it was condemnatory of all pretense, hypocrisy, and avarice. There came to him a desire to be changed in spirit and inclination, and he hoped to experience this by connecting himself with Christ. Yes; in the companionship of Christ, Judas might have found continual strength and aid; he might have co-operated with Christ in overcoming temptation, instead of yielding to the suggestions of Satan. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 4}

Knowing that he was being corrupted by covetousness, Christ gave him the privilege of hearing many precious lessons. He heard Christ laying down the principles which all must possess who would enter his kingdom. He was given every opportunity to receive Christ as his personal Saviour, but he refused this gift. He would not yield his way and will to Christ. He did not practise that which was contrary to his own inclinations; therefore his strong avaricious spirit was not corrected. While he continued a disciple in outward form, and while in the very presence of Christ, he appropriated to himself means that belonged to the Lord's treasury. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 5}

Several of the disciples were looked upon by Judas as very deficient. They would not see their opportunities, and take advantage of circumstances. The church, he thought, would never prosper with such short-sighted men. Peter was so impetuous; he would move without consideration. John, who was gathering the power of the truths that fell from the lips of Christ and bringing them into the sanctuary of the soul, was looked upon by Judas as a poor financier, one who could not keep the church free from financial embarrassment. Matthew, who had had an education which qualified him for accuracy in all his undertakings, was very definite and particular in regard to honesty. He was ever contemplating the words of Christ, and became so absorbed in them that he could not be trusted to do sharp, far-seeing business. Thus Judas summed up all the disciples, and flattered himself that the church would often be brought into perplexity and embarrassment if it were not for his managing ability. Judas thought himself the capable one, who would not allow himself to be cheated in a bargain. In his own estimation he was an honor to the cause, and as such he always represented himself. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 6}

Christ's last journey to Jerusalem, whither he went with his disciples to attend the Passover feast, was a fatal one for Judas. Not that it needed to be thus, but he himself made it so by his own course of action. The dissensions which frequently arose among the disciples as to which of them should be greatest, were generally created by Judas. On this occasion this spirit led to the request of James and John that one might sit at the right hand of Christ, and the other on his left, in his kingdom. But Christ taught them that those who were nearest to their Lord in position, were not of special consequence; that those who would bring Christ into the heart as an abiding presence would not selfishly seek the highest position in personal relation to him. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 7}

Thus it is with Christians today. Those who, in the spirit and love of Jesus, become one with him, will be in close fellowship one with another, bound together by the silken cords of love. Then the ties of human brotherhood will not be always on the strain, ready at any provocation to snap asunder. "All ye are brethren," will be the sentiment of every child of faith. When the followers of Christ are one with him, there will be no first and last, no less respected or less important ones. A blessed brotherly fellowship will bind all to Christ in a firm loyalty that cannot be broken. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 8}

The turn that affairs had taken at the feeding of the five thousand had dissatisfied Judas. It was he who had set on foot the project to take Christ by force and make him king. But Christ, with greater authority than he was in the custom of exercising, had rebuked this step. This had provoked Judas, and he became more and more separated from Jesus. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 9}

If Judas had practised the lessons of Christ, he would have surrendered to Christ, he would have consecrated his heart fully to God; but his confused experience was misleading him. When with the disciples, he introduced controversies, doubts, and misleading sentiments, repeating the objections that the scribes and Pharisees urged when questioning the claims of Christ. He did this at first in order to develop his reasoning powers; but the more he gave expression to the unbelieving remarks made, the more he turned them over in his mind, the more doubt and unbelief came in. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 10}

All the little and large troubles and crosses, the difficulties and hindrances to the advancement of the gospel, Judas interpreted as being evidences against its truthfulness. He would introduce texts of Scripture that had no connection with the themes of truth that Jesus was seeking to impress upon the minds and hearts of his disciples. And these texts, separated from their connection, and placed where they had no appropriate bearing and force, confused their minds and increased the discouragements that were constantly pressing in with the suggestions of the scribes and Pharisees. The sayings of the Pharisees also were so used by him to encourage unbelief, and lessen the force of truth upon the minds of the disciples, that Jesus declared of him that he had a devil. Yet all this was done by Judas in such a way as to give the impression that he was conscientious. And while the disciples were searching for evidence to confirm the words of the great Teacher, Judas would lead them almost imperceptibly on another track. Thus in a very religious and apparently wise way he was presenting matters in a different light from that in which Jesus had given them, and attaching to his words a meaning that he never intended to convey. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 11}

The disciples did not see in this the working of the enemy; but Jesus saw that the mind of Judas was open to questionings, doubt, and unbelief which had more or less influence on the other disciples, and that in this way, Satan was communicating his attributes to Judas, and opening up a direct channel through which to work. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 12}

If all could understand the deep trials and discouragements that came to the human nature of Christ in his mission, verily human hearts would draw nigh to the human heart of Jesus. The old nature of the disciples often appeared. Often their natural characteristics strove for the mastery. But Jesus was ever presenting before them that these must be given up, emptied from the soul, that he might implant a new nature therein. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 13}

That Judas, with all his faults and defects of character, was numbered among the twelve, is an instructive lesson, one by the study of which Christians may be profited. God takes men as they are, with the human element in their character, and then trains them for his service if they will be disciplined and learn of him. When Judas was chosen by the Lord, his case was not hopeless. He had some good qualities. In his association with Christ in the work, by listening to his discourses, he had a favorable opportunity to see his wrongs, to become acquainted with his defects of character, if he really desired to be a true disciple. He was even placed in a position where he could have his choice either to develop his covetous disposition or to see and correct it. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 14}

Judas might have been benefited by these lessons, had he possessed a desire to be right at heart; but his acquisitiveness overcame him, and the love of money became a ruling power. Through indulgence, he permitted this trait in his character to grow and take so deep a root that it crowded out the good seed of truth sown in his heart. But the fact that Judas was not right at heart, that he was corrupted by selfishness and love of money, is no evidence that there are not true Christians, genuine disciples, who love their Saviour and try to imitate his life and example. There will ever be some who do not live out their profession, whose daily lives show them to be anything but Christians. But those who, in the love of God, desire to do his will, will manifest the same in their lives. The more man views his Saviour, the more will he become assimilated to his image, and work the works of Christ. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 15}

October 12, 1897 Judas. (Conclusion)
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By Mrs. E. G. White.
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The love of money grew in the heart of Judas with the exercise of his shrewd abilities. His practical financiering ability, if exercised, enlightened, and molded by the Holy Spirit, would have been of great service to the little church; and by the sanctification of his spirit, he would have had a clear insight, a correct discernment to appreciate heavenly things. But worldly policy plans were constantly cherished by Judas. There was no outbreaking sin on his part; but his sharp scheming, the selfish, parsimonious spirit that took possession of him, finally led him to sell his Lord for a small sum of money. {RH, October 12, 1897 par. 1}

He might have obtained a larger sum; but Satan had impressed upon his mind that Christ, who had so often defeated the purposes of the scribes and Pharisees, would not suffer himself to be taken. How often he had seen the scribes and Pharisees, as Jesus taught them the truth in parables, carried away with the striking figures presented! When questions were given for their decision, they pronounced judgment against themselves, condemning the course they themselves were pursuing. How often when Christ had made the application of the word to their hearts, and showed that they were the ones whose course he was illustrating, the plain truth sent home enraged them, and in their mortification and madness they had taken up stones to cast at the world's Redeemer! Again and again he would have been killed had it not been for the heavenly angels who attended him and guarded his life until the time when the case of the Jews as a nation should be decided. This human life must be kept by the power of God until his day of work was ended. {RH, October 12, 1897 par. 2}

If Christ could escape so many snares set to destroy him, thought Judas, he certainly would not allow himself to be taken by the scribes, the Pharisees, and the Sadducees; and he decided to put the matter to the test, and bring the crisis. He, Judas, would act his part in selling his Lord, and the priests would be cheated out of their money. If Christ really were the Son of God, the Messiah, the people for whom he had done so much in relieving them from the oppressive power of Satan, would rally, and come to his assistance. Then he, Judas, would have the credit of having placed him on David's throne. This would forever settle many minds that were now in such uncertainty. And this act would place him as first, next to Christ, in the new kingdom. {RH, October 12, 1897 par. 3}

There are two kinds of experience,--the external showing and the inward working. The divine and the human were at work in the character of Judas. Satan was working the human, Christ the divine. Jesus longed to see Judas rise to his appointed privileges. He had the privilege of being conformed to the image of Christ's character. This regeneration, this new birth, would have come to him through a vital connection with Christ. The Saviour's abiding presence would have been to him a daily renewal of consecration and progressive sanctification of the entire man. But the human side of the character of Judas was confused with his religious sentiments, and was treated by him as essential. By taking this view of things, he left an open door for Satan to enter and take possession of him. {RH, October 12, 1897 par. 4}

When unbelief and envy are allowed even utterance, they become agents to expel calm, living, trusting faith. Truth is misunderstood, and perverted to mean error. Evidence might be piled upon evidence, but Satan is close at hand to see that the word spoken shall be misapplied, and become a matter of suspicion and distrust. How careful, then, should every person be that he does no despite to the Spirit of grace! {RH, October 12, 1897 par. 5}

Those who resist the Spirit of God, and provoke him to depart, know not to what lengths Satan will lead them. When the Holy Spirit departs from the man, he will imperceptibly do those things which once he viewed, in a correct light, to be decided sin. Unless he heeds the warnings, he will wrap himself in a deception that, as in the case of Judas, will cause him to become a traitor and blind. He will follow, step by step in the footsteps of Satan. Who, then, can strive with him to any purpose? Will the ministers plead with him and for him? All their words are as idle tales. Such souls have Satan as their chosen companion, to misconstrue the word spoken, and bring it to their understanding in a perverted light. When the Spirit of God is grieved away, every appeal made through the Lord's servants is meaningless to them. They will misconstrue every word. They will laugh at and turn into ridicule the most solemn words of Scripture warnings, which, if they were not bewitched by satanic agencies, would make them tremble. Every appeal made to them is in vain. They will not hear reproof or counsel. They despise all the entreaties of the Spirit, and disobey the commandments of God which they once vindicated and exalted. Well may the words of the apostle come home to such souls, "Who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth?" They follow the counsel of their own heart until truth is no more truth to them. Barabbas is chosen, Christ is rejected. {RH, October 12, 1897 par. 6}

It is essential to live by every word of God, else our old nature will constantly reassert itself. It is the Holy Spirit, the redeeming grace of truth in the soul, that makes the followers of Christ one with one another, and one with God. He alone can expel enmity, envy, and unbelief. He sanctifies the entire affections. He restores the willing, desirous soul from the power of Satan unto God. This is the power of grace. It is a divine power. Under its influence there is a change from the old habits, customs, and practises which, when cherished, separate the soul from God; and the work of sanctification goes on in the soul, constantly progressing and enlarging. - {RH, October 12, 1897 par. 7}

From EGW CD
“Converted” = 3754 hits
“Conversion” = 1538 hits
“Conversion is” = 96 hits
“True conversion is” = 25 hits
“genuine conversion” = 10 hits
“constitutes conversion’ = 2 hits
“is the new birth” = 8 hits
“new birth consists = 5 hits

Any one with an EGW cd want to volunteer to take one & pull it up, and several volunteers on the bigger ones.

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: Edward F Sutton ]

Again, I think it is very confusing to call a born again Christian, who is dead and free from sin, a sinner. The word "sinner" implies someone who is committing sin. But the Bible says -

1 John
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

These texts clearly describe the life of a converted person as one that is without sin. This doesn't mean that he will never revert back to sin from time to time, but as Gerry pointed out the Bible never says "when" but "if" a man sin we have repentance and forgiveness through Jesus our Advocate.

I believe it is very dangerous to go around claiming to be a sinner. It gives people the impression that sin is a natural part of salvation. In other words, to be saved means to live a life of sin. This is wrong. It is more accurate to say we are saints or former sinners saved from sin by grace. We need to glorify God by drawing attention to the miracle of salvation, rather than to our history of sin.

To give the impression that all Christians sin on a regular basis, and that even Paul sinned even though he didn't want to, is to tell a lie about the plan of salvation. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that born again believers sin on a regular basis, and that that's normal. Yes, there is record of believers sinning after they have been converted, but these accounts do not give the idea that this is normal and to be expected. In every case the person(s) guilty of sin is reprimanded based on the truth that there is no excuse for sin. And they are encouraged to - Go and sin no more.

Gerry, you inferred Rom 7 means that Paul commits sin even though he doesn't want to. Are you 100% certain that that's what Rom 7 is saying about Paul the converted apostle? If so, then how do you explain verses 17 and 20? Is he blaming sin on sin?

Daryl, Paul lists himself as the chief of sinners, in the present tense, as you say. But according to the sanctuary message our sins remain in mind and on record until Jesus blots them out in the INJ. Thus in Paul's case he may very well be number one on the list of sinners recorded in heaven. He could refer to this fact in the present tense without also meaning to say that he is chief of sinners because of any sinning he is guilty of on an on-going basis. We might also add that simultaneously Paul is also the chief of saints (perhaps just under John Baptist) on another list kept in heaven.

In heaven and the New Earth we will not refer to ourselves as sinners. Why not? Because Jesus set us free from sin. It is no longer a part of our experience. According to the Bible that experience must begin here or we will not be in heaven. If life without sin begins here and now, then why do we insist on calling ourselves sinners? especially since we will not in heaven.

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]