I love the seed illustration for explaining the process and product of conversion. And I have come to see the incarnation, birth and life of Jesus as the ultimate example of this illustration.

Like the seed planted in the soil, Jesus became a seed in the womb of Mary. Then He was born into the world like the first blade springing up out of the ground. Next He grew and developed into a mature plant with blossoms and a sweet smelling fragrance.

If we are willing to allow the seed to blossom illustration explain the life of Jesus, then it is clear that this illustration does not describe growth in grace in terms of out growing defects of character, but rather it demonstrates that self must first die, and then God plants within us the sinless seed of the new man - the same as it was for Jesus.

Eph 4:24 and 1 Peter 1:23 and 1 John 3:9 tell us that the divinely implanted seed we receive at the moment of rebirth is the new man, which comes complete with all the righteous attributes of God and all the fruits of the Spirit. Just like it was for Jesus at birth. Jesus was born perfect, and then He became perfect as He matured from childhood to adulthood.

We, like the baby Jesus, are born again complete, and then we too must also mature in the fruit of the Spirit - the same as Jesus grew and developed from childhood to manhood.

Can anybody show me why Jesus is not the perfect example of how it is for people who are born again? Just as Jesus began and became perfect, so too we begin at conversion where Christ began at conception.

Can anybody show why Jesus is not anexample of what it means to be born again?

Mike,
I see Jesus as our example. The reason of His coming was not only to atone for us by the shedding of His blood on our behalf which is justification, but his sinless life on this earth and His life after His resurrection and ascension, applying His blood in the sanctuary above, on our behalf, which is sanctification. Only by the Merits of our Saviour, can we inherit eternal life.

Rom 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

"WE SHALL BE SAVED BY HIS LIFE"...what a wonderful promise. By Christ's total dependance upon His Father He became perfect through suffering.......By our total dependance on our Heavenly Father, we too will be made perfect through suffering. "The love of God Constraineth us" When Jesus says follow me...He means to pattern our lives after His perfect example.

Jesus overcame the world as we must overcome the world....He was tempted in all points as we are but he did not fall. He had no defects of character to overcome but He will give us His victories for our failures when we trust wholly in him. We were born with propensities to evil, He was not, but when we become born again, He will win all the battles for us. Praise God From whom all blessings fall.

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: Charlene Van Hook ]

Charlene, excellent thoughts. Thank you. It is so awesome to know and to experience the promises of God according to the sinless example of Jesus. Amen!

By the way, I like how you repreneted "overcoming the world." Most people assume overcoming the world means gradually out growing our defects of character. But according to Rev 3:21 to "overcome" means to live without sin the same as Jesus lived without sin. I just love that.

Also, you mentioned Jesus did not have cultivated propensities to sin because He never sinned therefore He did not possess sinful traits of character. Would you conclude from this that Jesus had an advantage over resisting temptation not available to us? If so, in what way?

As I see it, Jesus inherited the same fallen nature we possess, with all it's propensities for sin, but that He never chose to act upon the sinful suggestions generated by His sinful flesh nature, and which are communicated to His sinless new man mind.

We, on the other hand, naturally act out the sinful clamorings of our fallen flesh nature, and as a result we also form cultivated propensities for sin. Which Jesus never did. Did that give Jesus an advantage over us? I think not. Because we begin at conversion where Jesus began at conception. That is, our cultivated habits of sin are first crucified (Rom 6:6) and then we receive the sinless seed of the new man (Eph 4:24), and from this point forward we begin as Jesus began, without our old man habits of sin (1 John 3:9).

Is that how you see it?

This is simply to let everybody know that sometimes the reading of a post can be missed when it is the last post between pages, therefore, if you wonder sometimes why somebody seems to be ignoring or not responding to your post, it could be for that very reason.

Mike, I too believe that Jesus was born with sinful flesh just like ours but with no evil propensities. He was after all the Son of mary, the mother of His human nature.... note the following quote.

S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 5---CT- John---PR- 04
-PG- 1128
(Ch. 14:30; Luke 1:31-35; 1 Cor. 15:22, 45; Heb. 4:15.)
"Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He
could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was
assailed with temptations in Eden."

His human nature experienced what we do...tempted in all points....but without sin. He never tasted of sin to give Him the propensity to sin but his temptations were far greater then our can ever be. Meaning, on the cross He was forsaken by His Father...we on the otherhand will never be forsaken but may gain spiritual strength from God under all circumstanses. Did Jesus an advantage over us....no a thousand times no...never could He have been our substitute or our example if that were the case.

Our human problem is in giving ourselves to Jesus yet, taking ourselves back to go our own way. Like Abraham of Old, if things don't move fast enough or plans don't go our way...we seem to make decisions we regret later if we had been willing to "wait on God." The proccess is long but praise the Lord He is patient, that is why we are still here but the time will come, when the number is made up, He will come....May we be in that number, it is up to us.

"Character perfection": Pages 312-333 from "Christ Object Lessons" is the best reference i can give you.

Even during the great time of trouble...after the sealing time....our characters will increase in faith, hope, and patients....Praise the Lord for His finishing work.

The Great Controversy---The Time of Trouble
-PG- 630
Could men see with heavenly vision, they would behold companies of angels that excel in strength stationed about those who have kept the word of Christ's patience. With sympathizing tenderness, angels have witnessed their distress
and have heard their prayers. They are waiting the word of their Commander to snatch them from their peril. But they must wait yet a little longer. The people of God must drink [631]
of the cup and be baptized with the baptism. The very delay, so painful to them, is the best answer to their petitions. As they endeavor to wait trustingly for the Lord to work they are led to exercise faith, hope, and patience, which have been too little exercised during their religious experience. Yet for the elect's sake the time of trouble will be shortened. "Shall not God avenge His own elect, which cry day and night unto Him? . . . I tell you that He will avenge them speedily." Luke 18:7, 8. The end will come more quickly than men expect. The wheat will be gathered and bound in sheaves for the garner of God; the tares will be bound as fagots for the fires of destruction."

By the way, here are two texts which clearly make a contrast between being a saint and being a sinner:

Romans
5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1 Peter
4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Can we read these passages and conclude that a born again believer is a sinner, or both a sinner and saint?

It would be possible to maintain that a born again, converted Christian is a sinner if indeed they were still sinning. But according to the Bible a born again believe has ceased from sin:

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

1 John
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In light of these plain testimonies, how can we argue that a born again believer still sins while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man?

Charlene, it looks like your post snuck in while I was working on my last one. Yeah, there's a big debate over whether or not Jesus assumed fallen nature or unfallen nature, with or without the sinful propensities of fallen flesh nature.

If we take all of Sister White's statements on this topic, which Ralph Larson has compiled in the book, The Word Made Flesh, it is obvious to me that Ellen White talks about two categories of sinful propensities:

1. Inherited Propensities, which refer to the fallen flesh clamorings associated with sinful flesh nature. The sinful suggestions generated by our fallen flesh nature and communicated in the form of conscious thoughts and feelings constitute temptations. We are not held accountable for them unless we desire or do them.

2. Cultivated Propensities, which refer to the old man traits of sinful character we develop as we act out the sinful suggestions that enter our minds. We are held accountable and must confess and forsake them if we are to be saved from sin.

We posses both categories of sinful propensities until we crucify self and receive the sinless seed of the new man, then our old man cultivated propensities die. Then all we have left to deal with is our inherited sinful propensities, which by the grace of God we can keep under control. Gal 5:24 and 1 Cor 9:27.

Jesus, however, never sinned therefore He never cultivated old man sinful propensities. But I think it's clear that He had to resist His inherited sinful flesh propensities the same as born again believers. The problem is when we assume that possessing sinful flesh nature is a sin. But clearly it is not a sin to possess sinful flesh nature, since it is plain that the 144,000 pass through JTOT without being guilty of sin even though they still possess sinful flesh nature.

To say that Jesus possessed "sinful flesh" nature without its inherited evil propensities is to say that He didn't really posses sinful flesh, but rather that He only assumed a degenerate flesh body, which if this were the case then it could not be said of Jesus that He was tempted in all points and in all ways as we are. The only way that He could have been tempted like us in every way is if He also had to resist the internal clamorings of His fallen flesh nature. If He did not have to overcome this avenue of temptation then He missed a major part of being a human, which would mean He is not able to identify with us in a major way.

If you want to read the quotes that give this understanding from EGW they are in the Ralph Larson book, and they are compiled in 7A towards the back of the book.

Yes mike i see what you are saying, I do have and have read the book you mentioned...and refere to it from time to time.

All sin is in three catigories....Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life. This is where i believe the similarity is in temptations..Yours...Jesus' and mine. the temptation falls somewhere in the boundries of the above. Propensiry means habit....you have done it once so it is easier to do it again...this is what humans have for all have sinned. However, Jesus in noway sinned once, even though severly temped, yet he remained without sin. His Temptations were great yet never did he sin. He did not develop a sinful propensity even though he had the sinful flesh because he never yeilded to any temptation.

I hear arguments by some that Jesus never had TV,etc.. so he doesn't know what it is like to have this temptation....but it does fall into one of the three catagories above. His nature did allow Him to be tempted in all points, as we read the account of His struggle with Satan in the wilderness. He is our example.

I think i must make myself clear on one point that i think I have not made clear enough before....

The new Birth must take plade not just once and we are on our way to Glory....We must die daily. To be covered by the White Robes of Christ's righteousness, it is a daily experiencea walk that starts each day by complete surrender. If we are to claim the promises of God, the relationship must be in tact and maintained. Like David, we can choose to commit knowing sins and fall out of a saving relationship and need another 'Born Again" experience. As long as we are fighting the good fight.....Christ's robe covers our slips and falls but when we choose to slip and fall without repentance...we are out of favor with God. It is not a Once saved always saved relationship if it is not maintained through all the temptations and mistakes. That is how...we climb the steps from Glory to Glory, Jesus merits are covering our defects as we struggle upward with our life's challenges. Again i point to COL....just a few quotes.

Will continue...sometimes things get in the way....fixing dinner is one. Back soon

CONTINUING:

I remember that it is taught in the parable of the Wedding garment, that along with the invitation, the wedding garment was provided. By excepting the invitation, one receives the garment. If we choose not to put it on, we reject the invitation, hence we are cast out. This tells me that if we do put the wedding garment on when it is received….we have the new birth in Christ at the beginning of our Christian walk.
The HolySpirit does the convicting of sin and character defects. One does not give up a ‘sin’ until one is convicted of that sin. One does not gain victory over a character defect until they are convicted of this ‘character defect’.

The “great Controversy” takes place in our lives when we are putting on the wedding garment. Satan didn’t bother with us until he saw he was looing us to Christ. The temptation to “not give up our evil ways” is now the target of Satan and the war begins. As we grow, we “delight to do His will…and pray for the law to be written in our hearts.” “By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God’s commandments.

Christ's Object Lessons----PG- 311
“Christ in His humanity WROUGHT OUT a perfect character, and this character He offers to impart to us. "All our righteousness are as filthy rags." Isa. 64:6. Everything that we of ourselves can do is defiled by sin. But the Son of God "was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin." Sin is defined
to be "the transgression of the law." ………..When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, NOT THE NAKEDNESS AND DEFORMITY OF SIN, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah.”

Christ's Object Lessons----PG- 330
The Lord has a great work to be done, and He will bequeath the most in the future life to those who do the most faithful, willing service in the present life. The Lord
chooses His own agents, and each day under different circumstances He gives them a trial in His plan of operation. In each true-hearted endeavor to work out His plan,
He chooses His agents not because they are perfect but because, through a connection with Him, they may gain perfection.

God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never
should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of
character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes.” [beginning of our walk] [new birth]
And those who would be workers together with God must strive for perfection of every organ of the body and quality of the mind. True education is the preparation of the physical, mental, and moral powers for the performance of every duty; it is the training of body, mind, and soul for divine service. This is the education that will
endure unto eternal life.

-PG- 331
But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by
accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one
unfavorable trait to remain uncorrected.”
END OF QUOTES

It is so hard to stop with these quotes…these inspired words of encouragement are living water. Please read the following 2 pages…they are truth that we need so much. Just one more [forgive the long post] but this is eternal truth…
Pg 333

“ As the will of man co-operates with the will of God, it becomes omnipotent. Whatever is to be done at His command may be accomplished in His strength. ALL HIS BIDDINGS ARE ENABLINGS.”

Praise the Lord.

Mike,

I am enjoying this exchange with you, hope you will be back soon.

Jesus is our light of life.