Ah, but, as a recovering addict I can say that one does not need to indulge the behavior. Is that weakness there till I die, yes. But the weakness and actually participating in the behavior are two different things altogether.

Thanks for bringing this point of view up. I do relate sin and addiction very closely. But in these parallels I also see that both, through the power of God, are beatable. I have experienced the power of beating my addictions through God. I have not craved using, or indulged the behavior and thinking patterns that characterize this problem for years now. The promises of God are true. All things are possible if only we will believe. The story of the boy possessed by a demon and his father is a most powerful lesson. If Jesus is capable of overthrowing the actual physical demonic possession of an individual, he can surely overcome our psychological dependencies upon sin. My God can do all things. Period.

Praise God that He is bigger than everything, that His power supercedes all problems and He has given us (as a gift) Victory over any temptation that might come our way. Being a sinner is unavoidable, sinning is avoidable.

"By beholding we become changed". When we focus on the symptom rather than the disease, the disease grows and worsens. Fix your eyes on Christ and He will give you Victory over sin in your life!

quote:

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Praise God that He is bigger than everything, that His power supercedes all problems and He has given us (as a gift) Victory over any temptation that might come our way. Being a sinner is unavoidable, sinning is avoidable.

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I agree. Sinning is avoidable, but we still have our fallen human nature until Jesus comes comes.

I also completely agree that staying close to Jesus is the ONLY way to overcome. There is no other. I also believe that Jesus completely changes our characters. We are told that they are the ONLY thing we will take to heaven.

If only perfection will exist in heaven, and our characters make it to heaven, what does that tell us about what is possible in character perfection?

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Gary K ]

Of course, it is also clear we don't see eye to eye on the process and product of conversion or how the sanctuary illustrates it. I believe our differences are vast and critical, and lie at the foundation of the great controversy.

The opposing views, which are more than insignificant contradictions, must, as I understand the great controversy, be ironed out amoung God's remnant people. Conversion cannot be both views, it must necessarily be one or the other view.

Either conversion is complete the moment we're born again or it requires a lifetime of sinning and repenting less and less until we cease from sin. Which one is it? Are we converted first and then we begin the gradual process of laying aside sin? or do we first lay aside sin, experience the miracle of rebirth, and then gradually mature in the fruit of the Spirit? What does the Bible say?

Personally, when I read the Bible, I do not get the idea that it takes God a lifetime to expose sin and to empower us to cease from sin and to begin imitating the sinless example of Jesus by gradually growing in grace and maturing morally in the fruit of the Spirit.

It's just not that hard for God to empower us to live without sin. All things are possible for God and for those who take Him at His word. Being a born again believer is not about not sinning. That would be self-centered living. Rather being a Christian is all about the Holy Spirit enabling us to reproduce the lovely character of Christ so that the world may behold in us Christ and Him crucified, risen and lifted on High.

I believe the Bible teaches that Jesus came to set sinners free, and that once free they are free indeed. John 8. Also, if Jesus is our example of what it means to be free, and if His life is what our life may be in Christ, then I find it terribly hard to term this the experience of a sinner.

Jesus possessed sinful flesh nature, and yet in spite of His fallen nature, He was able to stay connected to His Father and live without committing sin. Rom 8:3. Therefore, it would be difficult to say we are sinners because we have sinful flesh nature.

Also, Peter makes a contrast between sinner and saints, which makes it clear that we cannot be both.

1 Peter
4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

If our differences are that broad then can you say that my post was a beautiful description of conversion? If you think that it is beautiful does that mean it is accurate? If it is accurate and beautiful then are you ready to accept it? If it is wrong then please do not call it beautiful for if it is wrong then it is candy coated error.

The opposing views, which are more than insignificant contradictions, must, as I understand the great controversy, be ironed out amoung God's remnant people. Conversion cannot be both views, it must necessarily be one or the other view.

Would you summarize the differences between the two positions?

Either conversion is complete the moment we're born again or it requires a lifetime of sinning and repenting less and less until we cease from sin. Which one is it? Are we converted first and then we begin the gradual process of laying aside sin? or do we first lay aside sin, experience the miracle of rebirth, and then gradually mature in the fruit of the Spirit? What does the Bible say?

For me you are converted first. But when you are converted the growth process begins. You are a perfect child of God at that moment, fully in harmony with God. Then in harmony with the laws of nature that child of God begins to grow in grace and truth. It can be wounded, diseased, misled, but still be a perfect child of God. As it grows it will develop more fruit until it reaches maturity in Christ and is then sealed.

My concern with my understanding of your perspective is that you start out with gaining victory over sin without being converted. How would one who is not converted want to give up sin? How would one who does not have the mind of Christ come up with the idea to be seperated from sin? How would the rebel submit to the process of overcoming if it is not converted? Where would this unconverted character get the energy, the desire, the focus, and the direction unless the Holy Spirit has control over the heart and the mind?

Personally, when I read the Bible, I do not get the idea that it takes God a lifetime to expose sin and to empower us to cease from sin and to begin imitating the sinless example of Jesus by gradually growing in grace and maturing morally in the fruit of the Spirit.

Well if it is that easy how are you doing? If you sin are you unconverted? If you sin is it an error in judgment or flat out rebellion? Has God finished His project in you? If He has finished then is sanctification completed in you?

It's just not that hard for God to empower us to live without sin. All things are possible for God and for those who take Him at His word. Being a born again believer is not about not sinning. That would be self-centered living. Rather being a Christian is all about the Holy Spirit enabling us to reproduce the lovely character of Christ so that the world may behold in us Christ and Him crucified, risen and lifted on High.

God has sufficient power to do many things. But without forcing us to do something then how would He do it?
I agree that reproducing the character of Jesus is one of the central foci of the plan of salvation. So how do we get united as Christian brothers under the influence of the Holy Spirit?

During the process of conversion before we're converted the wooing "influence" of the Holy Spirit is what empowers us to overcome as the Lord gradually reveals our defects of character. The Spirit is outside impressing us to lay aside sin.

And then once we consent to completely die to self, by cooperating with the Lord until He exposes our final imperfection, at that point we experience the miracle of conversion, which is when God implants within us the sinless seed of the new man, which comes complete with all the righteous attributes of God and all the fruits of the Spirit.

Jesus is our example. He demonstrated what it means to be born again and to grow in grace and mature in the fruit of the Spirit. Since He did not overcome unknown defects of character, it is clear that walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man does not involve laying aside sin. All the Bible and SOP quotes that have been shared in this and other threads proves this point.

Do I live without sin? My answer is found in Gal 2:20 and 5:16 and 1 John 3:9 and 2 Peter 1:3-10. Just like Jesus, so long as I am connected to God and continue to walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man I do not and cannot sin. Amen. Thank you Jesus.

Have I sinned in the last week or whatever? Of course that's between God and myself. Even if I have, is that the standard by which we judge what the Bible and SOP say about conversion? The truth is the truth whether we experience it or not. The truth is, Jesus is our example of what we may experience if we will claim the promises just as He did.

I cannot see the conversion experience as it seems you do, and I even get somewhat confused in reading your posts, because I can't understand your thinking. I have really tried. It is just that I know from experience that I can do NOTHING about changing, or getting rid of my defects, all I CAN do is come to Christ, and ask Him to change me. It is the COMING, that to me, is my part. It is the cleansing that is His part, as I come to Him daily, and give myself to Him. He has to cut away the parts I do not need, He has to wash me, and keep washing me at the laver, but, I must COME into His presence so He is allowed to do it!!! and I must partake of the light, bread, water, etc. that He offers me to share with Him.

I do want to comment, though, Mike. I REALLY do apreciate the fact that you are courteous and Christlike on this board. And, Greg is also.
And, there are some others who are. It is just that in the midst of all the animosity, and sometimes what sounds almost like hatred, I appreciate anyone who can discuss rather than argue. So, I had much rather read a well presented post of yours, whether or not I agree, than one full of venom, and the writer seemingly full of themselves. I don't believe that kind of witnessing will convince anyone for good. Thank you for the courtesy and Christlikeness you show.