Avalee, excellent quote. Thanx. She uses the word "impresses" to describe what happens as a person is led to the point of conversion. She also uses the word "process" to describe the work leading up to the point of conversion. These are words I have used throughout this and other threads but to no avail. Why is it that Ellen White can tell the truth and get away with it, but others can't?

In light of this quote and the many others shared on this thread, it amazes me that so many people maintain that we are born again first and then the Holy Spirit begins the slow process of empowering us to lay aside our defects of character?????

The Bible clearly teaches that God first "impresses" us to lay aside our defects of character and then we experience the miracle of rebirth. This "process" may, depending on the person, take many months to many years. But we are not converted or born again a new man in Christ until after we cooperate with the Lord and completely crucify our old man habits of sin.

This is so clearly taught in the Bible and SOP that it surprises me so many people miss it or fight it. Why would anyone want to defend the mistaken idea that conversion begins the moment we're born again and that we then spend the rest of our lives gradually out growing our moral defects of character???? How utterly miserable!!! If that's what God and the Bible is promising then I don't want anything to do with it.

We seem to read the same words and yet get differing interpretations of these words.

Justification is when we accept into our heart what Jesus did for us on the Cross. Our deep love for the one that Sacrificed and payed for our transgressions. His Righteousness is imparted to us, become justified and He begins the work of Sanctification, which is our walk with Him. Our Abiding in Christ is the starting point.....The Holy Spirit convicts and converts along the way...do word studies on these words and you cannot come to any other conclusion than what we have been posting.....it seems you are choosing to turn the quotes into your interpretation...i have reread and really tried to see it other than what i am saying ..so i pray God give me the answer and show me boldly where it is wrong.

Historical Sketches of the Foreign Missions of the Seventh-day Adventists.-PG- 181

Brethren, be no longer slothful servants. Every soul must battle against inclination. Christ came not to save men in their sins, but from their sins. He has made it possible for us to possess a holy character; do not, then, be content with defects and deformities. But while we are to seek earnestly for perfection of character, we must remember that sanctification is not the work
of a moment, but of a lifetime. Said Paul, "I die daily." Day by day the work of overcoming must go forward. Every day we are to resist temptation, and gain the victory over selfishness in all its forms. Day by day we should cherish love and humility, and cultivate in ourselves all those excellencies of character which will please God and fit us for the blessed society of heaven. To all who are seeking to accomplish this work, the promise is very precious, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment;
and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Maybe we are saying the same thing only I see the victory coming first and you see it coming last.......The reason i see it comes first, is that from the first giving of ourselves to Christ, He pardons. As our defects are brought to our mind by the Holy Spirit, We confess, repent and forsake....this does not interupt the "pardon" for we are growing in His grace and He gives us the power to overcome. As long as we are climbing the ladder....we are in His care and covered by His Blood. When He looks at us it is as if we had already attained. He is perfecting us....Sanctifying us....i have exhausted my vocabulary.......I too feel this is a very essential understanding of the truth.
God Bless

Charlene, I'm sorry it seems as though I am twisting the Bible and the SOP to support my views. Please let me explain.

"Climbing the ladder" and "overcoming" and "becoming perfect" are things that Jesus Himself experienced as a human. Thus, it is obvious to me that these expressions do not mean we gradually out grow our defects of character after we have experienced the miracle of rebirth. It wasn't like that for Jesus, therefore it cannot be that way for born again believers.

The EGW quote you shared does not say that victory involves gradually overcoming unknown defects of character as God reveals them. She wrote: "Every day we are to resist temptation, and gain the victory over selfishness in all its forms." She's not talking about sinning and repenting in this passage. To "die daily" means to "resist temptation." It doesn't mean to fall and fail or to discover unknown imperfections on a daily basis.

Sanctification, according to the SOP, means to successfully resist temptation on a daily basis. It means maintaining the death of self. But more importantly it means maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. That's exactly what Jesus did, who is also our example.

Justification accommodates 1) sins confessed, forsaken and pardoned and 2) sins of ignorance. Jesus cannot, however, justify someone who is unwilling to confess and forsake known sin. So long as we are progressing at God's pace for us, confessing and forsaking sin as He reveals them, Jesus can legally justify us.

However, we are not considered born again or converted until all our defects of character have been revealed, confessed, forsaken and pardoned. The example of Jesus makes this point clear. He was born, as it were, born again or converted. Jesus never required justification. He started off sanctified. Thus, it is clear to me that sanctification has nothing to do with laying aside our defects of character after we're born again (that was completed when self was crucified before we were born again).

I'm not saying sanctification is the work of a moment. It wasn't that way for Jesus, therefore it cannot be that way for us. But neither is crucifying self (laying aside our defects of character as God reveals them) the work of a lifetime. Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP is this idea taught. It doesn't take God entire lifetime of sinning and repenting to empower us to live without the burden of sin.

It doesn't take years and years for God to reveal our defects of character. A person who is under the influence of the Holy Spirit, who is sincerely seeking Jesus with all his heart, mind, body and soul will be able to crucify all his moral imperfections within less than a year.

Read the following list and tell me which one of these moral defects of character would take God years and years to reveal:

Galatians
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If we say that this passage teaches God will not reveal some of these moral imperfections until after years of walking in the Spirit, then we are also saying that these people are not saved and cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Can we really say that someone is born again if they haven't laid aside all of these "and such like" moral defects of character?

Let's get practical Mike. The Moral defects you have posted above are the extremes....how about pride, bitterness, impatience, unkind thoughts, and greed, breaking the Sabbath in words or actions....these sins will also keep us from the kingdon. The ladder includes these and victory is step by step but some traits persist in even the most dedicated follower....These also must be overcome. Are none of the ones that possess these faults converted or born again? This may be very discouraging to those that struggle with this....Giving ourselves to God we are promised that we may overcome all inherited and cultivated tendencies, when does this victory come? These are great defects also.

Okay. Once again you make a good point. By the way, which ladder are we talking about? I assumed we were referring to Peter's Ladder in 2 Peter 1. If so, then which one of these steps deal with sinning and repenting - faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, kindness, or love?

From what I can tell none of these steps have anything to do with overcoming known or unknown defects of character. Plus I see nothing in the context to suggest that it requires a lifetime to possess the fruits of Spirit. Otherwise, love is the last step. Do we really want to conclude that love is the last gift God bestows upon us?

Also, being tempted to be unkind, impatient, unloving, etc., is not evidence we have yet to lay aside those particular sinful traits of character. That's what I believe people need to understand in order not to be discouraged. Jesus was tempted in every way possible, thus we may happily conclude that being tempted is not a sin, nor is it a sign we have unknown or unconquered imperfections.

God has promised that He will not allow converted Christians to be tempted above His ability to empower them to recognize and resist it unto His honor and glory. 1 Cor 10:13. Born again believers are not, according to the Bible, ignorant of the fact that impatience, pride, unkindness, etc., are sinful defects of character. And whatever God has revealed He is able to empower them to resist successfully.

Thus, in light of the promises of God, these so called entrenched imperfections are no match for our all powerful Lord and Saviour. Where we make a mistake, I believe, is when we isolate the millions of ways a person can be tempted to be impatient (or whatever) and treat each one as though it was a special defect of character which must be crucified individually.

As I see it, impatience is impatience no matter what form it takes. And when we cooperate with the influence of the Spirit of God and crucify impatience all variations of this sinful trait of character die with it as a whole, even if we have never been tempted in a particular way. Which is why we can say Jesus was tempted in all points we are - even though He was never specifically tempted to watch TV (or a million other modern day forms of sin).

It doesn't matter if we are tempted to be impatient in new ways for the rest of our life. Why? Simply because it is not a sin or evidence of an unknown or unconquered defect of character to be tempted in new forms of impatience.

Once we allow the Spirit to influence or empower us to crucify impatience (or whatever) we can trust God to enable us to recognize and resist any and all new forms of impatience no matter how long we live in this sinful old world. The Devil can invent a zillion forms of impatience, but not one of them represent a new or unknown defect of character. Impatience is impatience no matter how many new forms Satan invents.

Do you see what I mean?