Christian Perfection

I don’t know for sure if this is a safe topic to begin; but I will try it and see what develops.

Christian “perfection,” seems to be a problem no matter where you go, or who you ask, and I would say it remains so – even in the secular world.

Why does Christian perfection, or related subjects, seem to always generate very bitter arguments?

Why cannot believers all give Christian perfection the same importance? Why so many different views on it? Some tend to see it as a moral ideal of some kind, which is realizable, more or less, in our everyday life. Yet, for other people, Christian perfection is a complete and total, imperative obligation for them, where salvation is impossible without whatever they see perfection as being.

Seventh Day Adventists, along with many other faith groups, are troubled by this question of perfection. Let us use this thread to explore what the Bible and the SOP have to say on Christian perfection:

1/ We do know that perfection, is a definite Bible teaching.

So now we have another of my many questions. Is perfection even possible?

David, are you trying to approach this topic from a different angle than is already being discussed in several other threads?

David:
Of course perfection is both a doctrine and a possiblity. The problem is that people try to make themselves perfect, which can't be done, and they get worried about perfection, focusing on themselves, instead of trusting Jesus to complete the work that He has started. Jesus is perfect, He gives us perfection, first by justification and then by sanctification. When Jesus is satisfied with us we are perfect. It is that simple.

Mike

I did not realize that there was already a thread on perfection; I did check; but must have missed it. After a brief glance at the other thread; I think that I will be approaching it in this thread somewhat differently.

Maybe we could run with this thread for a bit to see...

When I first started studying this subject of Biblical perfection; I found myself immediately confronted by the scarcity of actual Bible texts on this subject. It is true, that in all my studies of the Bible, I could recognize that the entire Book is a clarion call to “perfection.”

But, It is with trepidation that I recall some of the more “famous” texts involving a direct counsel on being “perfect.”

A/ God’s Precept to Abraham: “Walk before Me, and be thou perfect.” (Gen.17:1).

B/ The Master’s Enjoinment: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Mat.5:48).

Should the ultimate goal of Christians, in fact be that of perfection? Are there any goals that would be classed as a higher attainment than perfection? Is God’s perception and depiction of perfection, the same as our’s typically is?

The Apostle Paul writes an example for Christians to follow, that falls in line with the topic at hand; yet, this example does nothing to tell us of the priority we should assign to perfection. How important is “perfection,” and why is it so essential for believers?

Says Paul: “Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended but this one thing I do: Forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press towards the mark, for the prize of the high calling of God, in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded.” (Phil.3:12-15).

Now, we have typically looked at this text in Phillipians, and said things like “God calls us to perfection.” Is that really true?

Notice what Paul does not say here. He does not say that people are being called to perfection. We are “called by God, through Christ.” But what are we called to? Why does Paul say: “Let therefore as many as be perfect?…. This sounds like people who are sensing their calling by God, through Christ, are already either perfect, or not perfect??? So, how and why does perfection happen?

Certainly, this text denotes the fact that perfection, whatever it is, and however it really happens, is indeed possible. How reasonable is it of God to create a need like perfection deep in our hearts, without, at this same time, giving us the possibilities and the means, by which to meet this need?

So, what is the true nature of perfection?

How necessary is it?

How can we decide if “perfection" has taken place, in ourselves or others?

Should Christians tell others to be perfect, “because the Bible says it?” What are right and wrong motives surrounding perfection?

It was to the rich young ruler, inquiring what more he needed to do to inherit eternal life; that Jesus said: “If you would be perfect; go, sell what you possess, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” (Mat.19:21).

Does this text mean that if we fulfil certain conditions, that “perfection” is possible? If so, then why aren’t people “perfect,” who do this? Who "fulfil" the conditions? Christ also said in this Scripture, how difficult it is for some people to enter into heaven; while He assured His appalled, and very cynical disciples: “With men this is impossible: But, with God, all things are possible!!!” (Mat.19:26).

So, here we have it in a brief nutshell. Perfection; whatever it is, and however it really happens, cannot happen, without God.

Are we in agreement so far?

I like how Jesus simply said - "Be" perfect. He did not say strive to "become" perfect. Jesus is no doubt the best example of what it means to be perfect. He began perfect and He became perfect. In the exact same way, we are perfect when we're born again and, like Jesus, we also become perfect day after day, which must necessarily mean that we mature in the fruit of the Spirit - from glory to glory, from faith to faith, and from grace to grace (and not by becoming less and less sinful over the course of a lifetime).

David, Again, I have to think on the same terms as the Juniors in my Sabbath School class. A few weeks ago we studied Mark 4:26-29. After we got to asking questions about the plant, we all agreed that it was perfect at each stage it was in, as long as it was continuing to grow. "First
the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear." It was "perfect" in each of the stages it was in, as it was receiving from God the "food and water" to nurture it.

Since Jesus is the best example of the seed-to-blade-to-blossom illustration it is evident the growth involved has nothing to do with gradually out growing defects of character. Wouldn't you agree? But most people who cite this passage and parable use it to prove that although we are considered "perfect" at each step of of the way, in reality we are full of unknown moral defects and imperfections which have yet to be laid aside.

Since Jesus is an example of this parable, how can we use this passage to prove it teaches we gradually out grow our unknown defects of character?

Dora

Kids always seem to say it better than us?

Here are a few more thoughts:

Part Two

The apostles seemed like they were the first real eyewitnesses of “perfection” happening in someone – through our Lord, Jesus Christ. It is only through Christ, that the impossible, becomes possible: “For by a single offering; He has perfected for all time, those who are sanctified…” (Heb.10:14). So here we have a close relationship with perfection, and sanctification. To the disciples, perfection seemed so real – especially to Paul; that he quite naturally referred to his readers as “perfect,” and, even counted himself in with them; even though, paradoxically, Paul did show that he recognized the fact that he had not yet fully reached perfection:

1 Cor. 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

Phil.3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

So we have a connection between sanctification and perfection. And, we have mixed ideas about when a person really is “perfect,” or “sanctified.

Now what?

Mike

What you said about "becoming less and less sinful," over time, sounds like evolution.

"Sin gets better?"

When we speak about perfection; I believe that the following picture, says a thousand words:

[ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

The above text in the picture, along with other Scripture & SOP, seem to pose the question: Is perfection something that can be taken away from one?

Luke 10:42 But one thing is needful;which shall not be taken away from her.

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]