[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: Dora ]

It makes me tired, just thinking of all that "changing" I need to keep on DOING.

I want to be a human BEING; not a human DOING!! The Bible says that:

And, if that is so; then, that is also what we will BE.

How can we do perfection? We have to be perfection; so how does the Bible tell us, that this would happen?

"Be ye therefore perfect; even as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Mat.5:48).

I would really like to define the word before we get too much further.

When we speak of perfection; are we speaking of Justification?

Or, are we speaking of Sanctification?

That's what it sounds like to me; as I read these posts.

I am trying to see just what perfection is first, before trying to figure out the rest of this topic on Christian Perfection.

quote:

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A Continual Work
Amazing Grace
Page 291

For this is the will of God, even your sanctification. 1 Thess. 4:3

Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, or a day. It is a continual growth in grace. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. Satan lives, and is active, and every day we need to cry earnestly to God for help and strength to resist him. As long as Satan reigns we shall have self to subdue, besetments to overcome, and there is no stopping place, there is no point to which we can come and say we have fully attained. . . .

The Christian life is constantly an onward march. Jesus sits as a refiner and purifier of His people; and when His image is perfectly reflected in them, they are perfect and holy, and prepared for translation. A great work is required of the Christian. We are exhorted to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Here we see where the great labor rests. There is a constant work for the Christian.

None are living Christians unless they have a daily experience in the things of God and daily practice self-denial, cheerfully bearing the cross and following Christ. Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he advances toward perfection, he experiences a conversion to God every day; and this conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character, a full preparation for the finishing touch of immortality. . . .

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As the quote says sanctification is a daily surrendering of ourselves to Christ...as I see it we need to each morning surrender ourselves to Christ in order to overcome what Satan will put in front of us that day to try to make us fall. Asking for the Holy Spirt to be with us and guide us through each moment of the day. Our thoughts should be so in tune with the Holy Spirit that we will know which way to go and which way not to go. This is a promise given to us by God...

Isaiah 30:21
And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

In The Blessed Hope

Avalee

[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: Avalee ]

I have asked myself the question regarding Christian perfection: “Are there any Biblical measuring criterias to discern and to define perfection?”

One text has been shining through, loud and clear:

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Notice carefully, what we are being told about what perfection is. Perfection appears to be inseparable from two things:

1) “Unity of the faith”
2) “Knowledge of the Son of God”

And notice; the measuring rod for perfection: "unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

Christ is our standard.

The Bible says that “the entrance of God’s Word gives us light and understanding,” (Ps.119:130), and it is certainly so with “perfection.” God’s Word reveals to us “knowledge of the Son of God,” and IF we truly accept this knowledge, we will also see “unity of the faith,” amongst believers.

So, there is not much to question re the fact that the perfection which our Savior and Lord calls us to, is indeed possible. But, based upon even just this last text of Ephesians we have looked at briefly; it is impossible to obtain perfection, apart from Jesus Christ. This is the one condition which Jesus set before the rich young ruler, when He said “and come and follow Me.”

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

I want to come back to this passage in Mat.19:21, but first, I think it is best to deal a bit with defining exactly what perfection is:

What is the very best meaning which we could give to this sometimes, hotly discussed word, and still remain faithful to the original intention of the Bible writers?

In the next post; I will show a detailed exposition on this from the Bible.

So, why do we insist that pressing onward toward perfection of character means gradually laying aside our defects of character? If Jesus' example means anything at all - which I believe it means everything - then how can we go around saying that advancing toward perfection of character has anything to do with laying aside sin?

Since Jesus is clearly our example in pressing toward perfection of character it obviouosly cannot, simply cannot, have anything to do with gradually out growing our defects of character. It wasn't that way for Jesus therefore it cannot be that way for us. Plain and simple.

Testimonies for the Church Volume Four---PG- 346
"When a man is earnestly engaged day by day in overcoming the defects in his character, he is cherishing Christ in his soul-temple; the light of Christ is in him. Under the bright beams of the light of Christ's countenance his entire being
becomes elevated and ennobled. He has the peace of heaven in his soul. Many give loose rein to passion, avarice, selfishness, and deception, and all the time excuse themselves and lay the blame on the circumstances which brought around the trial to themselves. This has been your case. God
permitted your surroundings to exist to develop character. But you could have made your surroundings; for by resisting or enduring temptation, circumstances are controlled by the
might of the will in the name of Jesus. This is overcoming as Christ overcame. "This is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."

Historical Sketches of the Foreign Missions of the Seventh-day Adventists.----PG- 181

Brethren, be no longer slothful servants. Every soul must battle against inclination. Christ came not to save men in their sins, but from their sins. He has made it possible for us to possess a holy character; do not, then, be
content with defects and deformities. But while we are to seek earnestly for perfection of character, we must remember that sanctification is not the work of a moment, but of a lifetime. Said Paul, "I die daily." Day by day the work
of overcoming must go forward. Every day we are to resist temptation, and gain the victory over selfishness in all its forms. Day by day we should
cherish love and humility, and cultivate in ourselves all those excellencies of character which will please God and fit us for the blessed society of heaven. To all who are seeking to accomplish this work, the promise is very
precious, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Why must we die each day and grow closer to God each day....?

Jesus overcame as a man in the same way we must overcome as born again believers. Since Jesus is our example, it is obvious to me that "overcoming" in the case of someone who is born again and walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man cannot involve laying aside unknown defects of character. It wasn't that way for Jesus thus it cannot be that way for born again Christians.

Laying aside our character defects happens during the process of conversion, during which time God gradually reveals our imperfections no faster than He is able to influence us to crucify them and to live without them. Once our last defect is revealed our old man (our defects) is crucified. Self is dead. We are free from the burden of moral imperfections. Then we are born again. We begin at conversion where Christ began at conception.

I really think we see much of this the same way, i am just not good at explaining it. Your third paragraph, i agree with whole heartedly except for the lst sentence. And here is where we disagree...i believe the conversion process starts with a New Birth, and you believe the process ends with the New Birth. I will keep studying it and see where i have made any mistakes....I pray the Lord will show me understanding that i will believe His teaching on this subject. What would you call a sinner's deep desire to follow Christ, when exposed to the Love of God? What is the beginning called, when one turns His life around from being a sinner to being a saint? When does God give the Wedding Garment, does it come with the invitation to the feast? These questions seem important to this topic...I need answers. Thanks