Mike

I feel that what needs to be done at this point, is to turn to a specific example from the Scriptures, to see what is so in this line of doctrine.

Let us take the example of Elijah, or Moses, and closely examine these, to see if they were "converted," and if they had fully "emptied" their hearts of "self."

I will let you "throw the first stone."

But, in our searching; let us remember, that utter brokeness, is obedience.

In fact, revival, is simply the outcome of obedience to the Light we have received from the Savior.

Why is it, that for many of us, this very brokeness, which includes our openess, to others, always starts out with something so costly to us?

Our walls of self esteem, pious speaking, and special holy behavior, have become very precious to us; and we cannot part with these, by ordinary means. Self, is sometimes, like the walls of Jerico, and needs to just come tumbling down; but, God in His great wisdom, knows that most of us would never give in to such a dramatic change; so He has provided the assurance that He will allow us each to "grow in grace," (2 Pet.3:18), at our own speed, and that, like Dora's plant illustration, we will be counted as "perfect," by virtue of His shed blood:

"Ye who were sometimes afar off, ARE made near, by the blood of Christ." (Eph.2:13). Not will be; but "ARE."

What part of this do you not understand Mike?

[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

Mike saud: "But I suspect you are insinuating that it's ludicrous for anybody to claim Jesus' promises of perfection in the intrinsic sense of the word? That is, it is premature for anyone to believe that Jesus is fulfilling His promises in their life here and now." Quote where I even vaguely implied this. You often put words in my mouth in regard to this topic. Read what I wrote, then give me the quotes that say what you "suspect" I'm saying.

"Some have taken a position that those who use tobacco should be dealt with and turned out of the church. In all of our experience for many years not a case of this kind has thus been treated by us. We have borne with them and labored with and prayed with them for years [NOTE: FOR YEARS!!!], and if after a time they did not reform, they became lax in other things and causes of a grievous character occurred which required an action on the part of the church, but then the responsibility was not assumed by merely the resident elder, the deacon, or any church member, but the church waited in patience for help, for wise counselors, and then moved with the greatest caution. These hasty movements in such cases tend to ruin a church. It shows a self-sufficient, self-important, bigoted spirit, which if indulged will ruin any church." . . . {9MR 195.2} Ellen White seemed to have no problem with taking time to overcome moral sins which directly destroy the temple of the Holy Spirit. Why do you have a problem with the time factor?

Zyph, I'm sorry I put words in your mouth. Here are the things you wrote that led me to suspect you believe we can't claim Jesus' promises of intrinsic perfection here and now:

"Jesus never had to be born again. His first birth was just fine. He was born perfect.
Psalm 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth." Our birth is different, according to God's word.
Jesus never needed justification. We do. "When can we expect God to fulfill this promise in our life?" Some on this board claim it has happened already. Why don't you talk to Him about it?"

I agree that our first birth is imperfect. That's why Jesus said we must be born again. When we are born again are we in the same predictament, that is, imperfect and sinful? If so, in what way is rebirth any different than our first birth? I believe the following passages teach that rebirth is the same as Jesus' first birth:

JOHN
1:23 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

JOHN
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1 PETER
1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 JOHN
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

True, Jesus' first birth was just fine, it was perfect and He did not need justification to atone for sin. This is also true of born again believers. It's not true of their past life of sin. The old man had to be crucified, and justification accommodates sins confessed and forsaken and pardoned. But the new man does not require justification. Why? Because he does not sin. Note the following passages:

MATTHEW
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

NOTE: The perfection of God, which is ours if we are born again, does not require justification.

ROMANS
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

GALATIANS
2:20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

GALATIANS
5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

EPHESIANS
4:22-24 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

COLOSIANS
3:8-10 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

2 PETER
1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

1 JOHN
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

NOTE: the imparted righteousness of the new man does not require justification. Justification accommodates the old man. Justification is necessary until the record and memory of our specific sins is blotted out. Justification is also needed if, after we are born again, we should resurrect and revert back to the mind of the old man and sin. We sin in the mind of the old man, not in the mind of the new man. So long as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not and cannot sin.

[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

David, Moses and Elijah were without sin while they were walking in the Spirit. There were times when they stepped outside that connection and sinned - "For all have sinned." Rom 3:23. Jesus never detached Himself from the Father therefore He never sinned. It's the same way for born again believers, that is, if they do not disconnect themselves from the Vine they cannot sin.

RE: Eph 2:13 I believe we must make a distinction between being saved and being born again. We are saved by the blood of the Lamb. Period. We are not saved because we are born again, or because we cease from sin. Being born again and ceasing from sin are just some of the many fruits of our salvation.

John wrote to encourage us to cease from sin, but he added "if" (not when) we do sin, Jesus stands ready to forgive us. He made it clear that it is wrong to sin, and that those who do are outside the truth, and if they claim to be Christians while sinning they are liars.

1 JOHN
2:1-5 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Notice also that perfection has to do with the love of God. The "love of God" is perfected in us as we grow in grace. It has nothing to do with sin. It does not mean that we become perfect by becoming less and less sinful. It does not mean that we become perfect as we gradually out grow our defective traits of character. Love is the fulfilling of the law - not breaking it until God decides to reveal our imperfections. Love becomes perfect as we cooperate with God and mature in the fruits of the Spirit. Perfection has to do with love - not sin.

Also, the plant illustration does not advocate that growth in grace involves sinning and repenting. As the plant matures it reveals it's inherent perfection. It does not lay aside sin as it grows and matures. The "incorruptible seed" (1 Peter 1:23) is not defective or sinful. It is "created after God in righteousness and true holiness." Eph 4:24. Jesus is the best example of the plant parable. We imitate His example so long as we stay connected to Him and walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man.

[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Jesus is the best example of what it means when the Bible talks about growing in grace and pressing onward toward perfection. Jesus began perfect and yet He also became perfect. He grew in grace and pressed onward toward perfection. Jesus "attained... perfection" in the same way born again believers must attain perfection. See AG 230.5 below. The idea that pressing toward perfection involves laying aside sin is just not biblical according to the example of Jesus.

According to Ellen White - "The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within." AA 551. Nothing is said about laying aside sin. The purpose of grace is to empower born again believers to mature in the fruits of the Spirit - not to lay aside sin.

HEBREWS
12:28 Let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear."

ROMANS
5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

6:1,2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

AMAZING GRACE, PAGE 230
Perfection of character is based upon that which Christ is to us. If we have constant dependence on the merits of our Saviour, and walk in His footsteps, we shall be like Him, pure and undefiled. {AG 230.3}

Our Saviour does not require impossibilities of any soul. He expects nothing of His disciples that He is not willing to give them grace and strength to perform. He would not call upon them to be perfect if He had not at His command every perfection of grace to bestow on the ones upon whom He would confer so high and holy a privilege. . . . {AG 230.4}

Our work is to strive to attain in our sphere of action the perfection that Christ in His life on the earth attained in every phase of character. He is our example. In all things we are to strive to honor God in character. . . . We are to be wholly dependent on the power that He has promised to give us. {AG 230.5}

Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was. {AG 230.6}

[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Jesus had zero momentum of sin to contend with. We have varying degrees of sin momentum, but all have sinned. Jesus had no cultivated tendency to sin. We have.

Why did Mrs White say the things I quoted? Can you give me a context that changes the obvious meaning?

Zyph, sorry I forgot to comment on the 9MR 195.2 quote you shared. Here's your comment on this passage - "Ellen White seemed to have no problem with taking time to overcome moral sins which directly destroy the temple of the Holy Spirit. Why do you have a problem with the time factor?"

As I read this quote I don't find where she is advocating that we should take our time overcoming moral sin. I see her saying that the church family should exercize the greatest caution when handling members who are involved in open sin. Neither do I think she is saying that such a member is born again. This quote cannot be used to prove that it takes time to overcome known sin.

Concerning the "time factor" of overcoming known moral defects of character, I believe Paul said it best when he wrote - God will not allow us to be tempted above His ability to empower us to resist it unto His honor and glory. 1 Cor 10:13. We do not fall prey to known sin because the power is lacking to resist it. Instead, we commit a known sin simply because we fail to choose to cooperate with the heavenly agencies God employs for our success. Once God convicts of sin it is within our resources to lay it aside forever.

Maranatha, page 225, paragraph 4
The strongest temptation is no excuse for sin. However great the pressure brought to bear upon the soul, transgression is our own act. It is not in the power of earth or hell to compel any one to sin. The will must consent, the heart must yield, or passion cannot overbear reason, nor iniquity triumph over righteousness.

Concerning the momentum of sin as it relates to Jesus and born again, converted Christians: it is true Jesus did not cultivate sinful propensities like all the rest of us did before we were born again. But does this give Him an advantage in resisting sin which is not available to born again believers? No! Otherwise Jesus could not be our example. Here's Ellen White's thoughts on this point:

The Desire of Ages, page 664, paragraph 4
Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was.

S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7A, page 450
The weight of the sins of the world was pressing His soul, and His countenance expressed unutterable sorrow, a depth of anguish that fallen man had never realized . He felt the overwhelming tide of woe that deluged the world. He realized the strength of indulged appetite and of unholy passion that controlled the world.

S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7A, page 450
Christ alone had experience in all the sorrows and temptations that befall human beings . Never another of woman born was so fiercely beset by temptation; never another bore so heavy a burden of the world's sin and pain. Never was there another whose sympathies were so broad or so tender. A sharer in all the experiences of humanity, He could feel not only for, but with, every burdened and tempted and struggling one.

Counsels on Health, page 440
Those who put their trust in Christ are not to be enslaved by any hereditary or cultivated habit or tendency. Instead of being held in bondage to the lower nature, they are to rule every appetite and passion. God has not left us to battle with evil in our own finite strength. Whatever may be our inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong, we can overcome through the power that He is ready to impart. . . .

Through the right exercise of the will an entire change may be made in the life. By yielding up the will to Christ, we ally ourselves with divine power. We receive strength from above to hold us steadfast. A pure and noble life, a life of victory over appetite and lust, is possible to everyone who will unite his weak, wavering human will to the omnipotent, unwavering will of God.

Testimonies for the Church Volume Five, page 510
My brother, your righteousness will not be sufficient. You must put on the robe of Christ's righteousness. You must be like Christ. Consider the severe test that Christ endured in the wilderness of temptation on the point of appetite. He was emaciated by that long abstinence on your account and on mine; He fought and conquered Satan, that He might give us vantage ground, bringing us divine strength to conquer appetite and every unholy passion.

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, April 24, 1900
We must learn of Christ. We must know what he is to those he has ransomed. We must realize that through belief in him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. Christ is the sin-bearer; John pointed the people to him, saying, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

Maranatha, page 224, paragraph 4
Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression.

Christ's Object Lessons, page 314, paragraph 4
Satan had claimed that it was impossible for man to obey God's commandments; and in our own strength it is true that we cannot obey them. But Christ came in the form of humanity, and by His perfect obedience He proved that humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God's precepts.

Faith and Works, page 71, paragraph 1
Christ took upon Himself humanity for us. He clothed His divinity, and divinity and humanity were combined. He showed that that law which Satan declared could not be kept, could be kept. Christ took humanity to stand here in our world, to show that Satan had lied. He took humanity upon Himself to demonstrate that with divinity and humanity combined, man could keep the law of Jehovah. Separate humanity from divinity, and you can try to work out your own righteousness from now till Christ comes, and it will be nothing but a failure.

The Ministry of Healing, page 180, paragraph 5
The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin.

Manuscript Releases Volume Eight, page 291, paragraph 5
The Son of God came to our world in human form to show man that divinity and humanity combined does not commit sin. He is our Pattern. Through Him we may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The Desire of Ages, page 671, paragraph 3
Of the Spirit Jesus said, "He shall glorify Me." The Saviour came to glorify the Father by the demonstration of His love; so the Spirit was to glorify Christ by revealing His grace to the world. The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people.

The Southern Review, October 25, 1898, paragraph 2
But His disciples see in Him the Way, the Truth, and the Life. And they shall have His abiding presence. They shall have an experimental knowledge of the only true God and of Jesus Christ whom He hath sent. To them He says: You will no more say, I cannot comprehend. No longer shall you see through a glass darkly; you shall comprehend with all saints what is the length and depth and breadth and height of the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge. He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. The honor of God, the honor of Jesus Christ, is involved in the perfection of your character. Your work is to co-operate with Christ, that you may be complete in Him. In being united to Him by faith, believing and receiving Him, you become a part of Himself. Your character is His glory revealed in you. And when you shall appear in His presence, you will find the benediction awaiting you, "Well done, good and faithful servant, thou hast been faithful over a few things: I will make thee ruler over many things; enter thou into the joy of thy Lord."